248. Burton Ishmael, Front Of House Engineer

In Episode 248, the hosts visit with front of house engineer Burton Ishmael, who is currently mixing Madonna’s global Celebration tour, and learn about how the artist sought him out after hearing him mix Post Malone, the latest in a list of A-List hip-hop and R&B acts on his resume that also includes Lil Baby, Nas, Big Sean, Miguel, and H.E.R., and others. This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

They also talk about what it takes to make a concert spanning a 40-year career sound coherent and contemporary while still remaining true to the individual eras of the artist’s career, as well as the unique collaborative process involved in mixing the vocals and effects for Madonna. And, they spend some time digging into Burton’s outboard signal chains for both Madonna and Post Malone.

Episode Links:
Burton Ishmael On YouTube
Rig Tour: Post Malone Front Of House Engineer Burton Ishmael (YouTube)
This is DeLaCruz! — Running Sound For Madonna — Burton Ishmael (YouTube)
Episode 248 Transcript

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Transcript

Signal To Noise, Episode 248: Front Of House Engineer Burton Ishmael

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, introducing their new CQ series, a trio of compact digital mixers for musicians, bands, audio engineers, home producers, small venues, and installers that puts ease of use and speed of setup at the heart of the user experience.

RCF, who has just unveiled their new TT+ Audio brand, including the high performance GTX series line arrays and the GTS29 subwoofer. Be sure to check it out at rcf-usa.com. That's rcf-usa.com.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green

Andy Leviss: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Signal to Noise on the ProSoundWeb podcast network. I'm your host, Andy Leviss. And with me, as usual, is my partner in crime, my unindicted co-conspirator, Mr. Sean Walker. What's up, Sean? 

Sean Walker: What's up, y'all? What's up, dude? I'm, uh, you know, hanging out jet lagged like a motherfucker. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, as we do. And I'm sitting here in an annexed vocal warm up room at a theater right now, popping in before the oratorio I'm mixing tonight. 

Sean Walker: There you go. Giddy up, dude. 

Andy Leviss: Some operatic chorale kind of stuff for a change. 

Sean Walker: Totally. But I wouldn't have it any other way, you know what I mean? 

Andy Leviss: Absolutely. Glad to be working, glad to be doing what we love. 

Sean Walker: Totally dude. Well, uh, without too much further ado, let's introduce our guest, 'cause we're all on a tight time crunch today. Uh, we got a friend of a friend of mine, Burton here, who is a front of house for Madonna and Post Malone. And we thought maybe we'd, uh, chat about some cool mixing, cool rock shows. 

Hey Burton, how are you buddy? 

Burton Ishmael: I'm great, man. Thanks for having me, guys. So excited. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, we're glad to have you here. Um, I mean, I, I, I suppose we should rewind back to, back to the start and do the cliche, like, how, how'd you end up here? At least the short version, like, at, or at least how'd you end up in audio, and then we can talk about how you ended up here with, with 

Sean Walker: Stuck with us. 

Burton Ishmael: Right, right, right, right. 

Andy Leviss: Well, that's a life choice he'll just question for the rest of his life after today, but 

Burton Ishmael: Love it. Hey, you know, one of the great things about our industry is the friendships in the network. We, we, uh, we get to experience, right? And that's, that's like what, what a What is that like a like a plus plus added benefit to it, you know, you meet great people and you know Just just to be able to share this level of creativity You know with your friends and stuff like that. 

Um so Uh long story short, um grew up in church right, so i've got a lot of exposure to uh Different genres of music because you know in church worship, you you know, you've got a little bit of everything um Had the experience of messing with audio since I was about eight years, nine years old, um, as far as It's not just playing your instruments, but sometimes in church, you gotta mic up your own instrument, you gotta do your own thing. 

And then from there, you know, the love of audio just, uh, began. Through the years, uh, studio work, um, and then, uh, in my 20s, started full on professional work. And that brought me into the touring market as well as Starting a regional, you know, company of my own that was very successful and that gave me a lot of exposure also because, you know, I was doing gigs for, you know, X, Y and Z for all kinds of, you know, different, um, events and different bands, um, uh, did a lot of club work, did a, uh, Very musical club in Queens, New York, you know, that had just about every genre of music come by, you know, and I've been there for a long time. 

I remember even raves like Rabbit in the Moon, if you remember, you know, stuff from back then all the way to, you know, all kinds of reggae. Uh, shows, um, bands out of France would come by, you know, and then you'd get all that exposure and, you know, what, what a great place that I had to be able to train professionally also, you know, um, 

Andy Leviss: realize you were a New York guy. So, uh, 

Burton Ishmael: 100%. 

Andy Leviss: Nice. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, not much of an accent, but, you know, but, but I, yeah, this is my place. 

Sean Walker: I'm getting tag teamed over here. You East coasters, tag team. 

Burton Ishmael: love Seattle though. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, it's all right. Yeah, that's cool. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, yeah. 

Andy Leviss: Cool, so like how, and then, so you were working at a club and then how, like at what point did you make the, like was touring always the goal? Like did somebody you meet there like kind of bring you out or? 

Burton Ishmael: you know, to be honest, touring was never the goal. Um, my personal goal is always to become a better mixer. So even if I was just mixing in the box and, you know, or mixing in the club, my joy came from just mixing, right? Um, I didn't. I wasn't chasing after the money. I wasn't chasing after, you know, the big tours or anything like that. 

Um, it just kind of fell into place with, like we mentioned, you know, this, the networking of this industry and people you meet, um, you know, and I. I was able to give into a life, a friend of mine, right, um, who is also in the industry now. I think he's currently in, uh, the UK. He's on a tour also, but you know, I was able to mentor him and get him going in the industry. 

You know, I think I remember I always tell him, I told him, um, one time, if you stick with me, I'll get your places. Right, and I'll teach you everything you need to know about this industry or and about sound in general. 

Sean Walker: I think I need to stick with you, bro. I can't, can you get me places? Can you teach me what I need to know? 

Burton Ishmael: let's 

Andy Leviss: to teach you for a while, 

Sean Walker: Yeah, I did. I'm a lost cause, bro. 

Burton Ishmael: Oh boy. 

Andy Leviss: old dogs? 

Burton Ishmael: that. Then we'll have to, we'll have to turn 'em over to lighting or video 

Sean Walker: Oh shit. I'm not pretty about to be on video, dude. I got a face for radio. You know what I mean? 

Burton Ishmael: Oh, I gotcha. Gotcha. 

Andy Leviss: pull off LED bro though. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, 

Burton Ishmael: LED World. There we go. There we go. There we 

Andy Leviss: you got solid LED bro vibes. 

Burton Ishmael: Right. And then, um, so I was doing a couple of other, uh, bands and stuff like that. And I think, um, at a certain time, Miguel, the singer was looking for a front of house and, uh, I was called back on that. Now, when I started that again, um, you know, I, I guess, You know, I was ready for the industry, and I had the skill for the appointed time, and that was very successful, and from there, um, I started to jump around and started to get calls here and there, and that was it, and now from that point, I have, um, gotten the opportunity to now work for, you know, the Queen of Pop. 

Sean Walker: Dude, how cool. I bet that's a super fun gig. 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, it's, it's, it's a fabulous gig. Um, I, 

Sean Walker: sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt 

Burton Ishmael: no, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Good. 

Sean Walker: I was just saying, there seems to be, like, there would be decades of different records to make and how do you make those have the right vibe they're supposed to have? You know, with an iconic artist like that. And then also still sound like they belong to the same show, right? 

Cause some of those records are very different sounding than the others. 

Burton Ishmael: I thought you said he didn't have the skill to be a sound guy. Wow. He comes out the box with a question like that. Are you kidding me? This 

Andy Leviss: thing is everybody says I'm the smart one. Sean is the smart one here. 

Burton Ishmael: Sean skipped Audio 101 and went all the way to the final course. Sean, what a fantastic question. Um, I've always said that there's two sides of audio that I've learned. 

The subjective part and the objective part. The subjective part being As you create a mix, right? It's, it's what you feel is what you want. It's what there's no right or wrong to your painting. There's no right or wrong to, to whatever, right? But at a certain point, it's going to have to be mastered if it's going to be released commercially. 

And in the mastering process, They, it is a specific thing that you have to meet to be commercially, uh, um, what's the 

Sean Walker: Viable or competitive or 

Burton Ishmael: viable, competitive is, is a better word, right? Which is the objective part of things. Now. The thing with Madonna, like you've nailed there, you've got 40 years of such specific sonic footprint right across. 

Now, the challenge is to be able to have an experience that doesn't take you too far from the moment that it was created. And not too far from what's available today, because remember, the tour has to also compete with what's out there right now. You don't want to go there and listen to a song or sound and be like, wow, this sounds like my dad's old record playing right now. 

Right? So, my approach was to look at all the macros, all the big moves that's needed for every song. Right, as far as triage or as far as enhancement, what are the things that are needed all around that will keep this within a plus minus 10 of deviating from the, from the moment or from the time it was built. 

And then, then I went into anything specific. per song, but keeping within that guideline. So it's like almost reversing the process. So you start mastering, but then you go back into the individual songs to make that, first of all, feel like a tour that's out today that can compare with Taylor, that can compete with Beyonce or Olivia, whatever the case is, right? 

To have it sounding that way. But yet not to take away from those sonic footprints that you would have heard. You know, she does a song, um, she does Burning Up, which is one of the first songs she's ever written. And I mean, if you listen to this thing, it sounds like it came out of that four four track Tascam that you, you know, with the cassette tape, you know what I'm saying? 

Sean Walker: I've messed up plenty of recordings on those. I know what you're 

Burton Ishmael: there you go. Yeah. So it's like, 

Sean Walker: many a bands there. Yeah. 

Burton Ishmael: Right, so you know, so you know exactly what you're getting that, you know, you're barely getting highs, you're getting all of this crunch, you know, you're getting, but it's like, wow. So you start from there, then you got like holidays, got a certain sound and this and that, you know, but one of the things that I've I've tried to keep consistent in the show is the bottom end because I felt like if I kept the bottom end consistent as well as the very, very top end, then that brackets the whole show. 

And then in between I can move things around. So you know, in an 

Sean Walker: it. Like, it can, you can stay in the moment and still use the mid range to give it personality or give it its decade it came from or whatever, but the people are still dancing and jamming and having a good time and not thinking you're changing decades on them. 

Burton Ishmael: that's it. You got 

Sean Walker: genius. That's genius. 

I love it. 

Burton Ishmael: What a great question. Wow. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Like, where do we go from 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah. Right. Let's see. Here it is. 

Sean Walker: Let's nerd, dude. How are you doing that? 

Andy Leviss: well, I was going to say, I've, I think this ties into the, the question I had is cause I was doing a little bit, a little bit of the research before he came in and it said, like, I'm seeing there's like, there's an effect of vocal effects engineer and producer credit on this. 

So I'm curious to hear a bit about how that works and like, are they working with you every day or did they just like, were the, was that kind of a rehearsal thing and then they hand off to you? Or like, what's, what's that whole situation like? 

Burton Ishmael: So the process that we went through on this tour was about four months of, um, recording work, mixing work, building the show, right? This also involved a, uh, an effects engineer, quote unquote. Um, but what this person was there to do was to create as best as possible, uh, the effect throws, the delays, um, the reverbs, stuff like that. 

Now, it had to be done that way because the decades that are involved, there were different sounding effects that records were produced on. So we kind of had to mimic In the box, you know, with the use of several plugins here and there and so forth to come as close as possible to what she likes and what she was used to when stuff was being done. 

So that person kept on and that person is also on the tour that's coming. Basically doing it again live in every show. 

Sean Walker: That's pretty cool, dude. 

Andy Leviss: Gotcha. So like they're doing all the effects throws and stuff and 

Burton Ishmael: Throws. And I have, I have the left and rights of, of the delays and the verbs and, and it's up to me now to wet it as much as I want. And sometimes, you know, when the throws are there, I might, you know, accentuate it some more and depending on the moment and all of that stuff. 

Andy Leviss: And I mean, on the, on the other hand, if you don't hit that throw on that one echo, you can just point to the guy next to you. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, or I just leave it up. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Sean Walker: you go. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, 

Sean Walker: Were there, when you guys were working through that process, were there any particular effects or sounds or things that you could not sort out with a plugin and you had to bring some hardware? Like in, in my particular case, I find it really difficult to replace an H 3000. 

Burton Ishmael: Absolutely. 

Sean Walker: hard for something to make that sound for me. 

Were there things for you that were the same? Where you were like, ah, 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, uh, Em, Madonna, uh, as long as it, it met the feeling for her, right? She, she understood the, the nature of the beast that, hey, it's, this is just not practical. So. Yeah, so just make sure there's a throw there, but I want the throw to last X amount of time or something like that. 

And as long as it gave her that basic feeling and, you know, um, that, uh, result, she was good with it. Um, but you're absolutely right. There were times when we were like, yep, we can't, we, we can't get that one, 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Burton Ishmael: unless we go sample some stuff, you know? 

Sean Walker: yeah, totally. Did you bring any hardware or is it all software based? 

Burton Ishmael: on my end. 

Sean Walker: For the effects. We'll, we'll get to you in a second. We're talking about your 

Burton Ishmael: yeah, oh yeah, yeah, 

Sean Walker: important anymore. We're talking about the effects guy now. 

Burton Ishmael: it's, yeah, so, so, it, it, it was more practical and feasible to be all software, you know. 

Sean Walker: As you're traveling all over the world and stuff. 

Burton Ishmael: It's traveling, yeah, it's, uh, it's the consistency in the presets, it's the consistency in the autotune and all of that stuff that he's doing down there, you know, the, the recalling ability was what we were looking for, 

Sean Walker: Totally. All right. What about you? What kind of, what kind of nerd stuff are you bringing to the table other than a, probably a cool desk? 

Burton Ishmael: All right, so starting with the desk, it's the Avid 6L, um, and that's got some plugins on there, um, some Waves, also Soothe, uh, and then on, I don't sum in the console, I sum outside, right? 

Sean Walker: is the nerd shit I'm here for. Talk to me. Come on. 

Burton Ishmael: So I sum on the Neve, right, um, and then from there, the Neve, I have all the inserts there. On, on her vocal, there is, um, you know, and I see this stuff every day, but I blank out when I think about it. But, uh, there's the, um, the, the 500 series rack. Um, and that's got an SSL EQ, one of the, uh, duressor. Um, it's got also a mog. 

It's got a purple, uh, 1176, uh, version. Um, And I believe, um, oh, a Clairphonic, a Clairphonic for the high end, and all of that stuff, when I, when I found the sound, I took that and I paralleled that again into another chain on the 500 series rack. So that's on, that's on her vocal, right? And then on the drums, there is a, um, A manly, uh, it's the Numu, I believe, and an API, the equalizer was at a 550, I believe. 

And that now is parallel on a 33609. for the drums, alright? And then, um, on the music side, there is the Neve, uh, what's the compressor with the blend on it? Uh, I don't remember. 

Sean Walker: I don't 

Burton Ishmael: it's a 50 something series, but it's 

Andy Leviss: at home is just screaming at their, 

Sean Walker: Yeah, yeah, totally dude. Ryan's kicking me cause it's in his rack. He's been using it for his drums 

Burton Ishmael: Right, right, 

Sean Walker: not knowing what it was like a 50, 52 or 

Burton Ishmael: Yes. Something like that. It's in the 50 or something like that. Or a 45, 52, something like that. Even these numbers, you know. Um, so that's there. And I use the parallel and that the base and the, and the keyboards go through there. Um, and that's, and I use a parallel blend on that one. And also. 

Um, on the backgrounds, I use a Fatso just to use, uh, what is it, the, um, the compressor that's on there that, um, you know, that acts like a DS or kind of high frequency suppressor on there. Um, and on the master chain, now, that starts out with, uh, And I have on the insert side of that, I have a manly, um, the, uh, equalizer on there that is the, uh, mastering version of, uh, what is that equalizer called? Good Lord. 

Sean Walker: The massive passive. 

Burton Ishmael: Massive Passive. Thank you, sir. I should know these things, right? 

Sean Walker: I mean, not 

Burton Ishmael: Um, I just go after the 

Sean Walker: Like if it sounds good, it is good, right? Like 

Burton Ishmael: yeah, yeah. The Massive Passive, then, that goes into a, um, that goes into a Mog, the, uh, 2 channel Mog, uh, and then that goes into a Clairphonic, right? 

Sean Walker: for the high end again, 

Burton Ishmael: For the high 

Sean Walker: end and the clariphonic. 

Burton Ishmael: yes, the high end and the cla, the high end on the ma, the MOG with the sub, and then the manly is just, you know, if I need to add or subtract anything there. But it, it gives that 

Sean Walker: with the tubes in 

Burton Ishmael: exactly once you, once you, once you turn those tubes on, you know, you hear, you hear a brilliance that's, you know, like it's so smooth and that now. 

Yes, that now goes through a fatso and again, all I do is tickle the, um, the clipper in the fatso. I forgot to tell you on the Fusion, I do use the, um, the, uh, Vintage, the Drive, the Saturation there, and, um, I do all of that stuff like that in the fatso, and after the fatso, the clipper from there, that goes into a Varimute compressor. 

Right? Which I tickle maybe 2 or 3 dB sometimes. And then from the VeriMute, it goes to a, um, Betamaker limiter. And again, I hit the clipper in there also a little bit hard. Right? And now all of that is now resampled in the digital world by a a dangerous, uh, convert. 

Sean Walker: Yep, totally. 

Burton Ishmael: That goes to a Lake Processing and then I send that over to the boys on the PA. 

Um, I, I use the clipper and I use the saturation because Again, some of the records are up to par, some of it are not, and just to be able to bring the RMS up to, you know, a working level across the board, if I got 2dBs of peak reduction on the SSL, another 2 on the FATSO, right, and another 2 on the BetterMaker, I've just increased 6dB of RMS, you know what I'm saying? 

So it's like that. along with shaping and bending, uh, you know, and control. 

Sean Walker: Dude, that's awesome. Plus, a bunch of tone, which is sweet, 

Burton Ishmael: Tone is like, I couldn't, I couldn't explain when I added a piece of analog gear to a digital thing, whether it was a DAW or a console. You know, the ones and zeroes will always be the ones and zeroes. Yes, I get the emulation. 

Yes, I get the, you know, the sweetness of that. But there's something when you start to put voltage in something and you start to really beat on it. And you find that sweet spot, like, I mean, on the SSL, like, if I hold it at Unity, it has a sound. And the moment I turn that output knob to 3 o'clock, I'm like, oh my gosh, why did he even give you an option here? 

Why don't you just set it at 3 o'clock and leave it? I mean, for that music, right? For another, for another, uh, you know, engineer, it might be a different spot, but you're like thinking Man, these things, these things have, they have their sweet spots and um, like you say, the tone and you know, like I, I even hear a difference like when I retube that stuff and I play it and I'm like, Oh, I wish these tubes could just stay this way all the time. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, right? Totally. 

Burton Ishmael: But uh, yeah, it, it, it, it clearly is a benefit and um, I do it, this is why I don't summon the mixer too. I do encourage people to, you know, um, To get away from the sterile sound of anything digital. It's sterile. Um, and it's gonna, I mean, you can put the plugins to do whatever you want and everything, but there's still going to be, it's still going to be governed somewhere, you know, 

Sean Walker: And are you just sending your subgroups out to the, 

Burton Ishmael: to, to the Neve. 

Yeah. And, and then I blend that. Um, yeah. And I have forced myself on this project to stay away from, from the too heavy of a plugin because of the macro moves that I was talking about, you know, if I did do anything, I fixed it on the channel strip of the mixer, which was on the digital side of things. And it gave me more flexibility, right. 

To be able to dig in and stuff like that. Um, and work with that on, on the first stage of the mix. 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Andy Leviss: Right on. Um, I'm gonna need to duck out in a few minutes, because I gotta go deal with an orchestra rehearsal, but I wanted to sneak one last question in before I leave you and Sean to carry on with, like, the super interview without me. And I know, um, Am I right that Madonna found you cause you were mixing for Post Malone and heard it and was like, this guy's awesome. 

I want him. Is that 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, that's, that's, that's it. Um, I was doing uh, Post Malone at MSG, we were on 12 karat tour and she was there and um, yeah, that's where it all started and she, she basically loved my work and said, hey, I need you to be on my staff 

Andy Leviss: And then, so the, the question I wanted to stem off from there then is like, is did you have a similar approach for mixing Post Malone or. Like with the, cause I see there's like some overlaps in style there and some very different kind of things. And I'm curious, like what, if, 

Burton Ishmael: I wish, I wish you had more, I wish you had more uh, time to, because this answer is kind of, it, it's, it's kind of a really unique situation 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. I mean, please like go with the answer. And if I have to tag out, it's fun. I get to listen to it later. It'll be 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, so, so Post Malone, after the pandemic, um, well, the production manager of Post Malone and myself, we go back a long time. We go back all the way from Big Sean, right? Um, uh, there were some things that took place and Post needed an engineer after the pandemic. Um, when I got on that gig, I was given a bunch of dates, right? 

And, uh, My friend, the PM, said, hey, he calls me, old boy, he's like, alright, old man, you ready to come out of retirement? I was like, yeah, what you got? So he was like, I got, you know, I got these dates for you. Then he calls me back and he goes, well, out of, let's say it was six days, he goes, out of these six days, I'm going to need you to do two dates. 

So I'm like, what happened? Did it get canceled? He goes, no, eventually this has become now a tryout. And I'm like, what? A tryout? I'm like, man, you know, I can mix, you know, I can pull the job off. Why am I trying out? 

Sean Walker: Yeah, yeah. 

Burton Ishmael: So he starts off and he starts to tell me everything. But needless to say, I did try out, there was a couple of other engineers that, that was um, involved in that, and uh, you know, I, I'm not saying that I was better than any one of them, but I, I was picked for Post Malone, and that's how I got picked for Post Malone also. 

Andy Leviss: Right on. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's not about necessarily what's better. It's about what's the fit for what we're looking for. 

Burton Ishmael: Yes. 

Sean Walker: Both, both the technical chops and also the hang, right. Cause the hang has got to be there too. 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, for sure 

Andy Leviss: so, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna run out to go deal with this orchestra rehearsal, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop that one more question in if you guys want to go, and then Sean, take it wherever you and Burton take it from there. Um, but just like, I'm curious, like on the, the technical side of the Post Malone, like, is that, was it a similar process, a similar vibe to what you're doing, or are we bringing different toys for that, or 

Burton Ishmael: Uh, different toys. Um, I did have like on the mastering side of things, I think I just had the, um, the, uh, the Numu. No, no, I'm sorry. The, um, the Vari-Mu uh, I did have the Massive Passive. I did have the Better Maker, uh, on the mastering side of things and then on his vocal chain, I had a DeEsser, um, a compressor, Uh, and I think I might have had DeEssa Compressor and maybe, maybe what's, uh, what's the Retro? 

The Retro Compressor? 

Sean Walker: Oh yeah. Like the stay level or whatever. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, 

Sean Walker: Yeah. Those are sweet. 

Burton Ishmael: yeah. Yeah, so I think that's what I had on there. Um, but the thing with Post is that The difference was, is that the level of triage was not needed because Post is so recent in the sense of, you know, things were built already sonically in place and it's just a matter of a lot of just leveling out things and making sure that the pockets were correct, um, which 

Sean Walker: all sounds more similar on that in 

Burton Ishmael: yes, absolutely, absolutely, um, we took about two weeks on Post to get that, to get that sorted out, um, And then we, you know, basically we referenced it across a bunch of different speakers to make sure that that was translating. 

Um, and after that, uh, you know, that pretty much lined up. I mean, it started out with great stems there. Great, great recording stuff. So that was an easier process. It didn't take a lot. So it was just, if I could have just did another 5 percent on what we were getting out the box, you know, on my end, uh, mission completed. 

Sean Walker: Awesome, dude. So nice when you get handed good stuff and you're just like, let's rip, 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. And I was, you know, I was a part of like I remember it was uh, myself, WFB and Willy, we were all doing it and as, as they were building the sounds and putting it in, I would be listening and I was like, alright this one has too much, you know, 4k or 500, let's pull a little bit of that down. 

So we were building it and as we were building it, we were fitting it in. So things, by the end of it, it was just so perfectly, you know, uh, placed together. 

Sean Walker: Dude, that's awesome. That's awesome. And how do you, well, like when you're preparing for two very different artists like that, how are you thinking about, you know, you kind of went through how you were thinking about Madonna. How were you thinking about Post when you, when you showed up and you were like, okay, here's what I'm going to need to do for this. 

You know what I mean? Cause you don't have four decades with the stuff to do right now. You've just got to make it consistent night to night kind of a deal. Right? 

Burton Ishmael: right. Consistent night to night, but, but, you know, whenever I, whenever I. Listen to something new. Um, the musician part of me first kicks in, what's the vibe of this song, right? And what's the vibe of this? And I believe that whatever I do to the mix, it has to bring me into movement. It has to bring me into the vibe. 

And that's like, that gives me such a, an objective. Um, approach, but I'm being subjective in my mixing, but I have to get that feel. I have, you know, I have to make this move. If it doesn't move me, I can't expect it to move anyone else. You know? Yeah. And, um, I think I want to say that that's one of my Edges, you know, uh, because I, I was stolen by, by, by Stuart Price, who is, who's um, one of Madonna's producers. 

He goes, man, you're dangerous. And I was like, why am I dangerous? He goes, you put yourself in the music. And he was like, not a lot of guys put themselves in the music. You become the music. And uh, yeah, so, and I, I get that from being a musician. You know, if, if I, if I can't, like, it's, it's such a thing to have a song. 

It's got words. It's got a nice, whatever, but. You want to go a step further as a musician and you want to, you almost want to say, I want you to feel my emotions. I want you to feel what I'm thinking right now, you know, and I'm going to sing it this way because I want to impact your mind or your emotions a certain way. 

So I'll play this note a little softer, I'll play this note a little, whatever, or I sing a little louder, sing a little softer. But I try to see and learn that from my, from my artists. Right? And I, when in the building phase of it, I'm listening to the sound, I'm like, Oh, that can be impactful. This can be that. 

That can be that. You know, once I capture, or once I capture and envision the vibe, then is when the tools come in to create. Because now I have a specific direction to go. Instead of 

Sean Walker: you got an end game in mind. 

Burton Ishmael: exactly. So I'm building towards an end game in mind. So now I'm not fishing around to see what works. I got an end game, I do it, and then is when I say, okay, is it working? 

Did I do the right thing? You know? 

Sean Walker: Where you're like, I need a little more gooey or goop here, let me find something neavy to thicken it up. Oh, I need something more like precise and focused or whatever, let me find API or SSL or something. Right, you're just looking for those things to, to impact your vision, right? You're like, I know what I want, now how do I go get that, basically. 

Yeah, yeah, 

Burton Ishmael: and, and a lot of it is once I get this static mix built to set me up like that, then every show starts with that, and it's just the, the automation part of me just moving things around, you know? And that's with the muscle memory of creating that emotion of movement. 

Sean Walker: Dude, awesome. That's awesome. And then, you were, before we hit record, you were talking about, uh, A gig you're about to go do in a little bit with Madonna that I think everybody wants, would love to hear about. Cause I, it was interesting to me. Can you chat a little bit about your, your run down to South America here? 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, so we're heading to South America on, uh, in Rio to be on Copacabana Beach on May 4th and, uh, this is, uh, this is charted to be the largest public gathering for Female pop star, first time in history, and we're expecting an attendance in about 2 million people. 

Sean Walker: So no pressure. 

Burton Ishmael: Not at all, not at all. Um, but, but let me tell you this, Sean, uh, as much as it is nerve wracking, I I could not express enough how grateful, thankful and humble I am that I'm getting this opportunity. You know, and I, I can, I can honestly say I've started where I've started and to be able to come to this and to mix in front of two million people live is almost like, okay, there he goes. 

She's done. I'm done. 

Sean Walker: Yeah. Yeah. Dude. How cool. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, like I, I am so, I am so thankful and you know, for those that are listening out there, I've always encouraged hard work, right? And skill building. Make sure you have your ducks in a row. Because when that opportunity comes, if you're not ready for it, You know, it's, it's going to be tough. 

And, and I also feel like opportunity comes to those that are prepared for it. 

Sean Walker: Absolutely. 

Burton Ishmael: You know, so our, our responsibility is to be diligent in our practice and our craft. 

Sean Walker: Totally. Totally. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah. 

Sean Walker: Yeah. Dude, that's going to be so cool. 

Burton Ishmael: Oh yeah, absolutely. 

Sean Walker: And did you say there was something like 1300 boxes of PEA on that show? 

Burton Ishmael: Well, we have 

Sean Walker: You must have countries involved in trying to suss that much PA in South America, 

Burton Ishmael: So, so absolutely. There's, you know, um, there's a lot that's going on here. It's. To fit two million people, you know, we, we have done, like myself and my SCs, we have thought about a four square foot a person and within a four square foot a person, how many square feet along, how wide this beach is going to be and how deep it's going to be. 

And we've calculated about just roughly close to two miles. 

Sean Walker: crap, dude, that's a huge space to fill with a lot of people. 

Burton Ishmael: Exactly. So, you know, definitely over 10, 000 feet, you know, a little less than 12, 000, whatever the case is there, whatever the numbers turn out to be. Um, so we have spec'd out, uh, some acoustics boxes, and I think the last count I got from him was close to about 800. 

Sean Walker: dude, that's awesome. 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, so now the challenge is who's got 800 L Acoustics boxes anywhere around in South America? 

Or if, if the case is like what we were prepared to do is just what we call the bubble so that the the most intimate part of where she's going to be is going to be consistent with the L Acoustics because that's what we're using now on the tour. So, you know, we kind of keep that the same and then anything else that's going to make up the Enough boxes to fill, but hopefully we can get it all the same. 

If not, you know, we'll do that. K1, 

Sean Walker: And is that all K1, K2 for you guys? 

Burton Ishmael: K2, we're trying to, we're trying to make it, you know, one of the largest deployments down there at any given time also. So we're going for all the records for the moment. 

Sean Walker: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Dude. Plus the LA guys are probably stoked to be helping out however they can and get the marketing on that. Right. And the pictures and the drone shots and 

Burton Ishmael: I am, I am sure, I am sure. Hey, it's uh, it's one smart way of getting cheap promotion on my end. 

Sean Walker: for sure. For sure, dude. For sure. Well, I, I definitely want to hear about it 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, oh for sure. 

Sean Walker: I'm going to text you back. Yo, dude, did you freak out? Is it okay? Like, 

Burton Ishmael: right, right, right, right, right, right, 

Sean Walker: Are you crying tears of joy or are you tucked under your desk? Cut. 

Burton Ishmael: know what I'm saying? Yes, I, I, I think from the amount of rehearsals that we have done, um, the only thing I, I am, Anticipating a little bit of, uh, getting used to, because right now we're touring with K2, so we're going to jump to K1 on the mains. So I have to kind of get used to that, and this is the first outdoors that we're going to do. 

Everything else we've, we've been doing, you know, arenas and stadiums, whatever the case is. 

Sean Walker: Gotcha. So not, not only what it sounds like up front, but how that sounds on stage too, because the K1 has a very different sonic footprint on stage than the K2 does. 

Burton Ishmael: absolutely, absolutely. So we've got, we've got those challenges to, um, that we are expecting, but Uh, you know, hopefully we, we overcome them and, you know, we adapt to them really fast. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, that's awesome. What's your, you had mentioned your SEs just a minute ago. What's your, you know, relationship like with them and, and workflow with them? And how do you, you know, since the, the mixing is the, the, the thing that twirls your beanie, you know what I mean? How do you get your SEs to give you the canvas you want to paint on, so to speak? 

And, and what does that relationship and dynamic look like for you guys? 

Burton Ishmael: Okay, so, um, if you, if you know me, I, I have a serious side, but I never, like, take the, the, the fun out of work. At the end of the day, the bottom line is we're all professionals and we have to execute. And we have to be as consistent as possible. I don't have around me an environment that's filled with tension or anything like that. 

Um, I like people to be themselves. I like people to be respectful of each other. Uh, you know, and We just create an environment of safety, a place where people can come and be themselves because we work long hours a day, you know, months after a time. So there's no need for us to. to be miserable, you know, and yeah, and we, you know, we try to feed off of each other's excitement and, you know, jokes and stuff like that. 

So that's that part of, you know, the dynamics. Um, as far as technical stuff go down, because of my massive background in PA rentals and, and deploying PA for all the stuff I've done, I am also on Like, I've been tuning PAs, I don't know, gosh, close to 20 years, you know, I mean, I started out with the When smart, uh, was with Sam Burkow way back, I think in night, in the late nineties, and then it went to JBL. 

Then I watched it go over to EAW and I watched it move around. So I've been using that, you know, for tuning, um, for a long time, a long, long time. My approach is. I have developed over the years a target curve that I tune to, right? Now, when it comes to L Acoustics and my SEs, the job that I give them is to pretty much make sure that the sound I'm hearing is the same thing that's flooded throughout the arena. 

Within, and I put a very strict criteria on that, within a plus minus three deviation. Right? Of SBL, uh, and obviously the same, uh, frequency curve tonality to, to, to be around the entire room. So that's my SEs. First and foremost job, the tuning, uh, we handle together, but we handle it based upon a target curve that we wrangle in every day when we switch environments. 

And that target curve, once that's established in the PA's tune, it's going back now to my mastering side, which I may just do some tonal shaping back to what the mix should be like. So sometimes in the room. Even though you've tuned to the target curve, there might be some high mid saturation, you know, or some low end roll that's a little more than the analyzer see than the analyzer is seeing at the moment, you know, it's in the, in the movement of the music and so forth. 

That stuff, I use my ears afterwards, right? And wrangle it in. Um, while we're run and I, I use pink noise. I don't sweep, but while the pink noise is going, I'm also warming up my ears back again. Because when I do my training and my singing, You know, my, my, my studies, I use a lot of pink noise to calibrate my, my ears. 

Um, and I found that to be, you know, more useful for me and more successful in my ear training. Um, so while I'm listening to that and everything, I'm starting to hear, you know, resonances in the boxes that I know live there, resonances in the room and so forth. So by the time I play the track, um, I can pretty much rely on my instincts to be close enough, as opposed to if I just started playing the track and relied on my hearing at the moment, which in my opinion, or in my experience, has lied to me before, 

Sean Walker: Sure. I mean, it has to all of us, right? What'd you have for breakfast? How tired you are? How long ago you got off a plane? You know what I 

Burton Ishmael: There you go. So all of those things, you know, and even when I'm in the studio, you know, there's there's I run pink noise And I run a few tracks all the time just to warm up my ears And then I sit into a mix and I kind of kind of do the same thing on the road 

Sean Walker: Totally. And what kind of a, what kind of a target curve or tilt have you found that you have landed on that you like in your, in your tuning? Does it have quite a, a big tilt in the bottom or not necessarily, or how does that work for you? What have you found that you like? 

Burton Ishmael: You have just asked me the secret sauce 

Okay secret sauce without revealing the details of In there, if you started at 1k at zero, by the time you're at 80, you're at about a 12 dB tilt. But, but within the tilt, there is some, there is a, there's a dip also, right? Um, Uh, so that's the tilt involved. The details now is I've always felt like 300 to 1k or 2k should be razor flat in any given system. 

Right? Um, because there's so much stuff that lives in the mid range that you do not want to color. Oh my gosh. And if you don't pay attention, you're like, why, why? 

Sean Walker: It's a party and you got to like do crowd control in that mother. You know what I mean? 

Burton Ishmael: Yes. And especially in Madonna's music too. Oh my Lord. You know, like it's so much there. Um, so that I believe to be razor flat and then there's a, then there's a, a shift from like the 200 and then it starts to gradually go up and then there's a, a little more of a severe blend, uh, bend upwards after about a hundred, you know? 

So I 

Sean Walker: where the subs specifically are taken over 

Burton Ishmael: right, starting to take over. Correct. Um, uh, I think I want to say. Maybe 6 dBs above 1k is where 100 is gonna sit around there, but that's the curve and then Obviously, it's C weighted and then it rolls off from about 8k Because I just treat half of the audience as being deaf anyways, so Exactly. 

So nobody's hearing anything above 8k, you know? Nah, I'm kidding. But uh, you know, it's longer shows, even if you're in festivals, you're there all day long pounding your hearing, you know? And just to taper off some of that, you know, high end harshness stuff also. Um, sometimes I do have a dip in the, uh, in the high end. 

I have two curves and I would just play around with the two, but I'd have them on presets just to hear, but once, I think for the most time, what I personally have issues with is between 1 and 8k. Things that live there can just get gnarly sometimes, especially on, especially on certain P8s, you know what I'm saying? 

And, um, you can really Really get annoyed after a while, because now it's a mixture of the room, now it's a mixture of this, now it's a mixture, like how do you, how do you take the room out and make things sound like it's coming back from the speakers, you know, and I feel like those frequencies there play a huge part in, in wrangling that. 

Sean Walker: They sure do. Especially if you have high gain guitars in your mix. 

Burton Ishmael: Oh my gosh, oh. 

Sean Walker: Just Space eaters, bro. Space eaters. 

Burton Ishmael: yeah, forget it. Like where, where am I supposed to put this vocal now? 

Sean Walker: Yeah, yeah. Totally. 

Burton Ishmael: Yep, 

Sean Walker: Oh, man. Crazy. Well, I, I, I think that that is a super cool approach and, and similar to, to myself and what a few other people that I know do is just like get it to a place that makes sense, right? Where you're like, okay, here's the ballpark in which I am comfortable working and works for my mix. 

Cause you've probably, if you are, You know, let's say plus 12, like you said, you've already got a little heat in the low end built into your mix, you know what I 

Burton Ishmael: Absolutely, 

Sean Walker: whereas some other people would have a lot more haystack or tilt or whatever in their PA and that low end is not built into their mix, so it would, you know what I mean, it would be a very different experience for them, but that's, that's cool to get like, hey man, I, whether or not this comes out of the box like this, here's where it needs to be for me to be comfortable And then this needs to be the same place everywhere. 

You know what I mean? So 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, 

Sean Walker: So do you, you and your SE get that happening basically at front of house or kind of whatever. And you're like, okay, that's what I want it to sound like. Make that sound everywhere. So he can now run all over this beach and go make delay stack 77 sound the same way too. 

And you're just going to leave him to it while you're doing other stuff. 

Burton Ishmael: so the good thing about L Acoustics is that And once you're doing the sound vision file, which is the stuff you do in the computer, it allows you to be able to put in your EQ points so that you can build a curve, right? I'm sorry if you're hearing the 

Sean Walker: That's all right, man. 

Burton Ishmael: um, uh, so you can start building a curve in there and having all the EQs and whatever, all the filters are deployed so that when you do send it to the amplifiers, you kind of already start as close as possible to that curve. 

Once that's done and we verify it on, on the PA and in Rio, once we verify that, um, our approach is pretty much going to be. Okay, if it's all K2s, then obviously we're just tuning one stack and we're deploying that throughout. Now, if we, if we have several different, uh, brands, then what I've requested is that I have at least one stack close to me, I can tune it, balance it, same way again with the target curve, and then we'll send it into its position. 

And then we'll just verify the delay times and all of that after. So that's pretty much the most, uh, I would say standardized approach that we can take. do with this, you know? Um, and the reason I'm doing that, and again, I use Pink Noise is because I have not been that good yet of being able to just listen to tracks and say, okay, this is what, yeah, I can listen to the track and feel it out and be like, yeah, it sounds balanced. 

But, you know, I, I just, I'm not from that school. 

Sean Walker: I'm the same dude. I'm the same. I can definitely be like, Oh, there's too much sub or it's too brighter. You know, I can like, Tailor it in macro views, but the micro stuff, I gotta 

Burton Ishmael: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I, I trust, I trust the instruments to do that micro stuff. 

Sean Walker: totally. Are you guys finding it possible to get as many LA boxes as you need down there, or are you probably going to end up with D& B and Meyer and RCF and whoever else knows JBL, whatever else is down there, just to make enough boxes to make it make enough noise? 

Burton Ishmael: The word is out, um, the fight is out. Uh, I haven't gotten a A specific update is yet, but yes, that is the challenge right now. Um, however, we have confirmed that within the first immediate bubble of what we need, it's, it's L Acoustics. Yeah, so that's good news. 

Sean Walker: delay ring 93 or whatever may be something else, but at least, at least the, at least the expensive seats up front all got what you wanted. 

Burton Ishmael: exactly, exactly, exactly, that's it. 

Sean Walker: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, is there, is there anything that I should have asked that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about 

Burton Ishmael: Ah, 

Sean Walker: we wrap up and not drag these people through nerding about audio consoles? 

Burton Ishmael: oh my gosh, um. Not that I can't off the top of my head, I mean, wow, anything that you should have asked. Um, hmm, 

no, but I would say this though, if I can, lend some encouragement, that um, You know, uh, being a good musician requires practice, and being a good mixer also requires practice. We do live in a time and age now where you don't have to wait till the weekends for the club to open up to go mix, or the church to open up on a Sunday, or whatever the case is. 

We have computers that we can run DAWs. And we can download multitracks and we can practice mixing from there, you know? So, I encourage, you know, whoever wants to get into this, that, you know, start your chops there. 

Sean Walker: Totally. Burton, thank you so much for the time and for hanging out and sharing your story and knowledge and wisdom. And let's get you back on after your Rio show and see how it went and, and see, you know, whether you survived or not... 

Burton Ishmael: Yes! 

Sean Walker: You'll be fine, I'm just being silly. You know what I mean... 

Burton Ishmael: Yes, yes. I'm expe...I'm excited to come back and report, 

Sean Walker: Yeah, dude. Totally. Totally. All right, cool. Well, we'd like to thank Allen and Heath and RCF for, uh, you know, supporting us and keeping this thing going. And thanks all you guys for listening. Burton, thanks for showing up. That's the pod. See you guys next week. 

Burton Ishmael: See ya.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green

<DOG BARKS>

Sean Walker: "Edit at dog barks." Good talk. <laughs> That's standard issue for us, bro!

Andy Leviss: <laughs> I know what they look like on waveform already!

Sean Walker: <laughs> Totally

Andy Leviss: And this will probably be the blooper reel...

Sean Walker: Yeah, yeah!