255. Sound Engineer Joe “Chef” McGrath

In Episode 255, Andy is joined by DC-area based sound engineer Joe “Chef” McGrath, fresh off working together on a now rare “industrial musical” in NY this week. They start off talking about Joe’s extensive work as the mixer for the Ultimate Rap League, and why the mic of choice for them for rap battles might be the brand you’d expect, but almost certainly isn’t the model you’d guess! This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

From there, they discuss different aspects of freelance life, including setting and negotiating rates, and when and how to take a gig you really want even if they can’t pay your usual rates without getting taken advantage of.

Episode Links:
Ultimate Rap League
Episode 255 Transcript

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Transcript

Signal To Noise, Episode 255: Sound Engineer Joe “Chef” McGrath

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, introducing their new CQ series, a trio of compact digital mixers for musicians, bands, audio engineers, home producers, small venues, and installers that puts ease of use and speed of setup at the heart of the user experience.

RCF, who has just unveiled their new TT+ Audio brand, including the high performance GTX series line arrays and the GTS29 subwoofer. Be sure to check it out at rcf-usa.com. That's rcf-usa.com.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green


Andy Leviss: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Signal the Noise. I'm your host Andy Leviss, and not with me today is my co host Sean Walker. Sean had a family thing he had to do, so he tagged out for this week. But he's much missed and he'll be back next time. Uh, with me, however, is a new friend who it's surprising that he's kind of a new friend because as we started going through, like, all the people we know in common, we could literally go through the alphabet. 

There was Aram, there was Brian Maddox, there was Chris Leonard, Dave Rittenhouse, I don't know if we have an E, we've got Foley, I feel like there was a G at some point, but, uh, but, uh, today's guest is Joe "Chef" McGrath. How you doing Joe? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: What's going on, Andy? 

Andy Leviss: Uh, not too much. Uh, so Joe and I haven't seen each other in a very long time. 

It's been about 20 hours. Uh, we just wrapped up a gig, uh, this week here in New York that, uh, Joe came in on and, uh, yeah, and funnily enough, we, uh, we, we, before the gig ended up swapping the roles we were slotted into. So. Little bit of 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I wish I was  

a better Riedel guy. 

Andy Leviss: well, and it was, I don't know about you, I didn't realize 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh, I think I'm frozen. Um, there you are. I got a crappy hotel internet connection right now. 

Andy Leviss: It's all good, as long as the audio keeps going, that's all that matters. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Right on. Yeah, you killed it on the, uh, killed it on the comm. 

Andy Leviss: Thanks, man, and it sounded like you and Dan did solid on the RF there, and we had a Henry Cohn assist on day one, which is always makes life a lot easier. Life nice and easy. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely, that guy's a monster. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. But, uh, but yeah, no, I was saying like, I, I didn't realize anybody still did like full scale, like, you know, Broadway industrial musicals and I actually, I don't know about you. 

I didn't even know that was what we were in for on this gig. I was just like expecting talking heads and then they're like, and so there's a, there's a sousaphone actors and I was like, Oh, whoa, whoa. This is very different than what I 

thought it  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Broadway, corporate mashup. It was fun. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Cause like back in like the eighties and nineties and like even before that, like, you know, those were like dime a dozen, but nowadays. 

Much more rare. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, good stuff. Had a blast though. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. No, it was a it was a good time a great crew And yeah, we had fun But yeah, we were chatting and and chatting about like some of the cool stuff just done I was like, oh, yeah, we have to get you on the podcast So here we are What what do you was a little background on who you are what you do other than doing, you know RF for you know weird industrial musicals 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Sure. Actually, I'm not the RF guy on a, on a regular basis. I'm more of a front of house guy, but, uh, um, I, I mix, I do a live sound. I've, uh, done everything from corporate concerts, um, do a lot of, uh, weird stuff, uh, theater and, uh, you know, it's like, Once you find something you're good at, you're gonna, uh, you're gonna try to get that role, but, uh, but I, I freelance, so I take any role I can, you know, I, I love, uh, kind of just getting thrown to the dogs and, and figuring things out, I mean, I'm not necessarily an RF guy, but, uh, you know, I don't have any problems, uh, you know, fighting the FCC a little bit and, and, and making things happen, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, 

end of the day wiggly  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: up there, it was, uh, it was pretty, yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty, uh, pretty hard space to work in up there. So  

Andy Leviss: Yeah, so we were up at the shed here in New York, which I may or may not have talked about before because it's one of, one of my sort of home venues here. I sometimes play on the local crews, sometimes lately a lot of production, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: it was a fun time. That was a great crew, uh, an awesome little venue. I, um, I haven't gotten an opportunity to work there before, so  

Andy Leviss: Yeah, so for, yeah, for those listening who don't know, it is like, it's, the whole building isn't really a shed, but the space we were in really does kind of feel like a giant shed, but not in like, not in the sense you concert folks are thinking of. It is, when it's deployed in this configuration, it's literally, like, basically, like, a hundred something foot square cube. 

Like, the grid is, like, depending on exactly where in the grid you're talking about, it's anywhere from, like, 95 to, like, 110, 115 feet trim, because there's two sections of it, um, and yeah, but that whole shell, they can actually, if they strip all the truss from it, they can actually roll it on these giant, like, railroad tracks over the rest of the building, and it becomes an outdoor plaza. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It's pretty cool. A modular building concept. I haven't seen that before. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and then, and then there's others, there's like some galleries in there, there's another, like, black box theater that can be one huge space or two smaller spaces, like, it's, it's a pretty flexible, you know, there's some art, there's lots of rentals in it, it's, it's a cool place to hang, and yeah, a good crew of, a good crew of Local One guys, gals, and non binary pals, and 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, Local One kicked ass this week. They did a great job. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, it was, it was a hot and heavy, like, three or four days, I think. Were you there, were you there for the hang day, or you just came in on 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I was lucky enough to avoid trucks. I left before they got packed and I came after they, uh, after they already hung points. 

Andy Leviss: Right? Nice work if we can get it. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. A white glove this time. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, so, so where does, I gotta ask, where does the nickname Chef come from? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh man, I wish it was, you know, everybody asks, you know, hey, how'd you get the nickname Chef? Were you a chef in a, you know, former life or something? Um, food poisoning, actually. Uh, my, uh, my first tour out, I, um, I, Eight tour catering and ended up hospitalized with listeria. Uh, yeah, it was awful. Um, came back to tour and I was not eating catering anymore, so I bought like a little hibachi grill and I was cooking, uh, dockside. 

And luckily the, uh, the folks I was on tour with were, uh, really kind, uh, bought me a nicer grill, gave, gave me the nickname chef, and then made me cook for everybody. So it was a, uh, . Yeah, it was a good time. It was a good time. 

Andy Leviss: That's, I do that, we, we were talking before the gig about like coffee and like, and like bringing your coffee setups with you and I like often bring a hand grinder and an AeroPress and I've, there's always somebody who's like, can you make for me? And I definitely had one corporate gig a couple years ago where somebody was like, Oh, like, can I, You know, can you show me how to use it? 

And like I showed them, like made them and then as I was going through it, it slowly dawned on her that like, this was my personal setup and it wasn't just part of the catering setup and she felt so bad. I'm like, nah, it's all good. I don't mind sharing. Like, I'm not going to make it for you every day, but 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, man. Hey, you better be careful. You might end up with the nickname barista or something, you know, 

Andy Leviss: You're a hipster. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: that's it. Yeah. Um, I really like the fact we connected on brown liquids, you know, uh, whiskey and, uh, you know, whiskey and coffee. Good stuff. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, we started the first day talking about coffee, and then the last day I brought everybody past my favorite whiskey bar. Which I think we all had a good time. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It was a blast. It was a blast. It was really great. Um, some, some very, uh, rare stuff there. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, no, it's a fun time. If anybody's ever in New York, on the rocks, 49th and 10th, tell them I sent you. You know, message me on Discord or on the Facebook group, and I'll probably meet you there if I'm around. Uh, but yeah, no, it's a good time. But, uh, yeah, Joe's, Joe's done some really cool stuff. And I know, like, one of the things we were talking about is you've got a lot of experience in rap battles, which both is cool to begin with, but also we were talking a little bit about microphone choices and that, and how, like, the brand of choice might be the one you think, but the model of choice is not the one 

anybody  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: it's definitely not what you'd expect. Um, I like to think of it as angry theater, really. Um, so I, I do a, uh, I do a bunch with a, a, a really awesome group of, uh, of folks. Um, uh, URL, Ultimate Rap League. Um, I've been, uh, been mixing for them for, Quite a few years now. Um, kind of started in studio space, sort of a controlled environment, and uh, and they got really used to not having to hold handhelds or anything like that, and you know, it starts getting a little, you know, pushy, shovey, lots of pointing, finger guns, I mean, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of action on stage, it's very theatrical, and um, props sometimes, you know, and, and you're uh, Sort of fighting with outfits as well. 

Um, so we ended up landing, when we went, when we went back to live after pandemic, we ended up landing on not by, not by my choice, um, 185s, WLs, little, uh, little Shure lavalier capsules. Yeah. Um, we tried headsets for a minute and, um, you know, they didn't, uh, they didn't like the look. It wasn't, uh, wasn't very. 

You know, it looked more like a dancer mic, you know, not a lot of people like the headsets. Um, but, uh, yeah, we ended up landing on lapels, and if you've ever tried to, uh, you know, get 90 plus dB, um, through a J array or something with 5, 000 assets in seats, uh, on a WL, you know that I'm carving the heck out of these things in order to, uh, to make that happen. 

So, yeah, we've got a lot of weird signal flow going on in that, um, You know, we've, we've got broadcasts. So our real, our real audience is on, uh, uh, URL TV, Caffeine TV, um, and, you know, live streaming. So we've got a lot of live listeners and, you know, people there, um, in house, you know, that, that, that 5, 000 matters, or, you know, even if it's a thousand, I mean, we do some small clubs and we do some larger, larger stuff, but never any like, you know, 20, 000 plus cap, it's, it's normally. 

You know, in the 5, 000 range, but, uh, you know, there, you know, we're carving it up, but it's going to sound great online. It's going to sound live. You got to avoid plosives and, and weird stuff happening. Chains, you know, there's, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of items that are getting in the way, especially you're, you're sort of dealing with a wrestling match up there. 

So. And it gets, it gets more fun as, as I continue to talk about it. Every time I try to get somebody to fill in for me, they're like, no, no, I don't want that gig. I don't want that gig because we're, we're doing, we're doing front of house monitors and broadcast from front of house. Right. So, um, so I've got some weird routing going on and, and. 

A lot of times I'm on a house desk. So, you know, I might be on a SD9 one day. I might be on a, you know, S6L another day. I might be on a, uh, God, I did a Pro X show at Irving Plaza not too long ago. And, you know, sometimes I'll bring out a DM7 or something, but, uh, it's, it's basically like boxing, it's set up where there's. Three rounds of battles, uh, everybody kind of goes at it during those. We've got an MC, uh, Smack, who kills it. He's awesome. Um, and he, uh, you know, sort of does crowd control in between battles. Um, and then we'll go to commentary where, you know, it's basically Not judges, but, uh, but people just kind of recapping what happened in the battle, you know, and, and how everything went and, and whatever. 

And we might be playing assets, bumpers, videos, et cetera. And that's happening online. Sometimes it's also happening in house, uh, but we also got like a DJ that's going on in the background. So that's not going to stream, but other things are. So there, there might be like three different things happening at the going out to three different areas, right? 

So there's. crowd control happening in house. There's a DJ playing through, you know, a house system and then a monitor's, uh, you know, smack saying, hey, we need you up here. We need you to move. We need, you know, getting stage cleared and stuff. So it's, uh, yeah, it's a fun, fun little battle. It's, uh, just basically anxiety from the, Second, the show starts until it ends. 

It's great. 

Andy Leviss: That's wild. And man, I can't, I'm trying to imagine like doing like that many different signal flows on like console du jour 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, so that's the whole part. It's like, um, you know, I've got show files for everything now, right? Which has been really cool. It's been a secret blessing. It's, you know, drove me crazy. But, uh, but now it's like, I've got weird macros built to, uh, to mute certain matrices or mixes to matrices rather. Um, you know, and then sometimes, uh, like on Midas, you know, I'm basically opting on mutes for, uh, for, for feeds. 

Um, it's. It's a weird, uh, you know, it's a weird show. It's a, it's, it's a fun one. I really, I really do love it. Um, you know, kind of become a passion and, and I sort of have been getting into gangster rap. Like it's sort of, it's sort of, sort of made me, uh, made a, maybe a big battle rap band. It's, it's kind of awesome. 

Andy Leviss: So like, how did you fall into that? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Well, um, so a sort of a guy reached out to me about, uh, about like this, this studio space that, uh, that I had done some things in before. Um, this is right at the onset of the pandemic. Uh, basically, you know, we, um, as a freelancer, you know, most of us, Early on, we weren't like eligible for workers comp and all my work just went away. 

I was like, Oh shit, what am I going to do? Buddy of mine put me in his shop for a little while. So I was just a shop guy for a couple of days. And, uh, and before I was able to get unemployment, I got this call that, uh, you know, Hey, we, we really need a, uh, a guy who's got experience at the sound stage, we want you to help us out. 

And, uh, That's sort of where it started, we just started in the, uh, in the studio, um, you know, people wanted, people wanted to get out there, people wanted to still have live shows, and, uh, you know, we just couldn't do it in person, so, it was, uh, it was kind of weird when we went back to live, um, that I was experiencing the, the actual crowd for the first time, which is just nuts, I mean, that, that crew is awesome. 

Andy Leviss: I 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Definitely cool. 

Andy Leviss: So, so like signal flow, like, is it, you're saying it's like a, it's a wild signal flow, is that just because of all the different routing to the different feeds and streams or is there like, is there also like. Plugins and processing and shit you're doing just to make it work. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I'm doing a ton of plugins and processing, but I'm doing all those, um, you know, externally because I've got, uh, you know, console du jour, as you were saying. Um, so when, uh, you know, basically I'm taking a, uh, a My broadcast feed and I'm running it through Live Professor with some plugins and you know, just my, just my regular little, uh, Spice Rack, um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, in house primarily I'll mix on console, in box, um, broadcast I will try hard to get, you know, as isolated vocals as possible, um, And then pipe in my air mics, my audience mics and everything, try to try to give it a live feel again. 

But, um, yeah, and then there's like the whole commentary thing, which is always like sort of in an isolated area. So it's almost like a soundstage within, but you kind of want that background noise from the, you know, venue bleeding into the broadcast feed. Um, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of fun. It's kind of fun. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. I mean, I mean, when you talk us through like what the, like what plugins are you using? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Um, well, I, uh, so. Basically, for my broadcast feed, I'll start with, uh, like NS1 and just kind of get rid of a little bit of the, uh, just the overall, whatever, um, the background bull, um, then to really kind of isolate vocals, I'll, uh, I'll normally send my vocal bus, um, through like my, my primary, The, Talent, VocalBus through, um, actually Clarity, which is a Waves plugin also, um, which does a phenomenal job. 

It is a, it is a latent plugin, so, um, using it on broadcast is, you know, ideal, but, uh, uh, we can't really use it. In a live venue. I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it through my PA or anything, but, uh, it, uh, definitely does some real work, really cleans things up. I mean, I can, I was just using it, uh, on a commencement actually, a couple of weeks ago, and, uh, we had a big reverberant room and, uh, just, it just. 

Knocked the verb out of the room, knocked any of the bleed. I mean, you couldn't even hear like the band that was playing 25 feet away from the, uh, from the, uh, the lecterns, you know, it was, uh, it was crazy. So, yeah. And then obviously, you know, you pipe air mics back in to make it feel live again. But, uh, yeah, that you just, it sounded like they were in a newsroom. 

Very, uh, very cool, man. I love, I love Clarity. It does a great job. 

Andy Leviss: check that out. There's, yeah, there's so many plugins and, and hardware options too that do that now that it's just, it's, yeah, it's the, the first time you play with those. It's, it's, it almost messes with your head how like, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, dude. Uh, Clarity and D Verb are, are just. Absolutely insane. Wave's doing some pretty cool things. 

Andy Leviss: Alright, so I'll have to check out Waze, because I've been like, I've been deep in the iZotope camp on that. So, like, the 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: awesome, man. I definitely use some iZotope stuff, too. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and, and, we've talked, I've talked before on this, like, Voicety Noise is, astoundingly, they do what they do, and it's zero latency. And I don't understand how, like, it's friggin voodoo 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: That's super cool. I'll definitely look more into that. I haven't used that plugin yet, so. 

Yeah, and like the, and the new version, it's, like, they've, they've even got a real time version of their, what is it, the, the Dialogue Isolate, I think is the other one they do, that used to be very latent, and they have both Dialogue Isolate and, uh, Voice D Reverb, and they've now, on like, RX 11 that just came out, combined those into one tool, and gave it a, a low latency mode. 

"And there's the pups. 

Ha ha ha ha. I'm making a note about those two right now. Not the pops, the plugins. 

Andy Leviss: is pretty 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Ha ha. 

Andy Leviss: I mean, I'm making a note about the pups. See, but I mentioned them, so now I can't edit them out, because I mentioned them. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: That's  

Andy Leviss: Usually I just ignore it, so I can edit it out later. I've gotten real good at the point where I can actually tell the waveform. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: ha. 

Andy Leviss: That's hashtag podcast life. 

Um, but yeah, so, okay, so, like, the rap battle stuff, like, what else is your typical bread and butter? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Well, um, I mean, I do a ton of like large format corporate and political stuff. I'm, I'm out of the DC area. So, um, we've got politics everywhere, which I don't talk politics. I don't care about politics. All money is green money. Uh, so I, I try to, um, separate myself from the talent that I'm working with, but, uh, yeah, I've, I've basically worked with every president since I started in this industry in 2003. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, uh, Everything from brands to bands to businesses and presidents, you know, just it's a, it's a, it's a weird life for sure. Uh, I'll be mixing battle rap one day and, uh, and working for, uh, you know, a politician the next. So, 

Andy Leviss: And then you take everything you've done, you shake it up in a ball and you basically end up with Hamilton, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: exactly. There you go. Yeah, shoot. Maybe I  

Andy Leviss: battle rap and politicians. Um, you know, I had another question for you right on the tip of my tongue and then I made a terrible joke and now I lost the 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: That's, uh, that's all right. That's all right. We're, we're completely shooting from the hip on this one, guys. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, no, it's all good. That's, you know, it seems like half the time when we do these episodes are the ones that people love where we come in with like barely a plan and just like go and 

talk about whatever comes up. But, um, so what was that first tour that you got the nickname on? What was that? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh man. Um, I don't, I don't think I could talk about that tour really. I, you know, uh, started well and I loved those guys and, and we worked together for a couple of years, but, uh, I sort of left there with a, with a. With a bad, bad thing. So yeah, I, it was, it wa it wasn't horrible. It's not like, you know, they wanna kill me or anything, but, uh, yeah. 

We're, we're, uh, you know, uh, it was a lifetime ago. 

Andy Leviss: Gotcha, yeah, I mean that's, I mean so much of what we do is like the lessons we learn along the way. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh my God, man, I, um, I've definitely, uh, you know, so sometimes, sometimes, you know, uh, I like to talk about the things that I mess up, right? Like, um. 

Andy Leviss: Yep. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: A lot of people, a lot of people in the DC area, you know, they look up to me. They know me. I'm, you know, a household name, sort of, because I've been on job sites there since 2003. 

I mean, we've been all working together and it's a pretty tight community. And I like to try to, you know, humble myself and say, you know, Hey, man, I, I mess up. Like I've, I've had some pretty big mistakes and, and, you know, so, uh, you know, the, uh, probably edit all that out, the, uh, um, you know, the URL stuff, man, um, you know, there's, there's some gigs that, No matter how hard you try to save them, they are, they're gone. 

You know, there's, there's nothing you can do. It's a, you know, freight train off the track sort of thing. Um, we, uh, we came into a, uh, a club that I will not name, um, in a, uh, I don't even know if I should name the town. Uh, it was, it was, it was a thing. Um, and, uh, we had basically just a broken PA, broken stuff. 

Everything was just bad. Um, you know, and we're like, uh, well, we've got a show at, uh, you know, outdoors, we're at 1 PM, I think the next day. And it was, it was near midnight and we're calling like PA rental companies trying to find something to hang. Right. So, uh, we, we made it, we did it. Put, uh, you know, VRX on sticks and, uh, you know, kind of a, kind of a really bad manner, but we did it. 

It, we pulled it off. Um, but if, uh, if you ever find me saying, you know, oh, I've done worse, I'm probably talking about that gig specifically. That was a,  

Andy Leviss: We all have those. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, no 

Andy Leviss: Well, that's the thing too, like, I find with like so much of like, in all genres, but especially in like corporate stuff, like there's the gigs where everything wants to be perfect and there's the gigs where like, As long as they can understand what's, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Get it done. Yeah, absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: That's I've, I've mentioned on the show before the advice, uh, uh, designer gave me years ago as, as constructive criticism, which is don't let perfect be the enemy of done. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. There's, there's a time and a place for both. And I think that's those of us that are the folks that are good at what they do care so, so much. And we get, we start really beating ourselves up when it's not perfect. And you like have to remember to be able to like step back and like view it from the client and the attendees side and be like, like our A minus or B plus is probably an A or an A plus to them, you know, compared to what they encounter on an average day and like not beat ourselves up too much, you know, at least during the show. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I've had a couple of, uh, of gigs where I thought it was just awful and, uh, you know, the client's like, Wow, you're the best engineer we've ever worked with. This has been phenomenal. Everything sounded so good. And I'm like, really? Okay. All  

Andy Leviss: hurt you?  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Let's raise the bar a little. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Yeah. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: uh, no, yeah, I always strive for perfection. 

Obviously, um, I, I try hard to, uh, you know, really. Understand what's uh, what's happening and not, not make any just immediate decisions on things. You know, you see too many people just do things because that's what they do. Um, my, my whole thing is, you know, let's, let's gain it up. Let's hear it. Let's see what's happening. 

And then let's, let's correct it. Let's fix it. Um, I try not to, uh, Not to put my hands in things too much, you know, plugins are very, very easy to get lost in and, uh, you know, just say, I'm going to, I'm going to always do this. You know, I always need to use the Cedar. I always need to do this. You know, and I, I just, I don't have a, um, a single way workflow. 

You know, I, I try hard to every time I touch something, be like, why am I doing this? What can I do to? Make this specific area, you know, easier. A lot of times, you know, you're not listening to, um, actual speech during a speech in corporate. Um, I, I, I like to say I hear color, which is, you know, uh, all right, someone ate mushrooms, but, uh, um, it's, it's more like, you know, I'm, I'm listening to the vocal tonality. 

I'm, I'm hearing, I'm hearing speech sounds and, uh, and trying to correct for those speech sounds. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Well, and you do enough, like larger corporate events or like medical conferences. Like, I don't, I could hear every word and, and not understand what they're saying anyway, so it 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah, I don't need to sign that NDA. I didn't hear anything. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. And what I did hear, I had no idea 

what the fuck you meant,  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I can tell you that, uh, that CEO though has got a little bit of a, uh, tooth issue. Like maybe, uh, maybe a chip or something. He's got a whistle. 

Andy Leviss: yeah, yeah. you and, yeah, that, that, that, that one keynote 

speaker, a little bit of a tongue thrust, uh.  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: Oh, man. But yeah, that's, that's a good point I want to, like, drill into folks that you brought up. That, like, it's the, just because you have the tool doesn't mean you need to use the tool. It's about knowing which tools to use when. 

And, and, I mean, that's, I think that's the balance, like, I mean, on music stuff too, particularly one offs and especially on corporate stuff. It's like, what do you build into your console file to begin with? What do you just have handy and know that you can patch in real quickly? You know, and if you do build all this stuff in, like, you know, like, leave it all in bypass. 

Like, just have it there so you can drop it in quick when you need to fix the problem, but don't start with it in. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, I got, I got so used to, uh, like throw and go corporate in my, in my younger days. Uh, you know, I was, I was, you know, coming up and working a lot, um, as, as an engineer and I, I didn't really know what I was doing. Um, you know, so it was like more or less learning on the job. I, uh, probably maybe 2006 or seven, I really like dug into, uh, You know, real gain structure and understanding the absolute basics. 

I broke out the big green Bible, right? And, uh, you know, just, just learned everything, right? Learned everything I could about, uh, you know, gain structure and signal flow. And, and the way that, you know, the way that everything affects everything else. Um, And, and it's sort of put me in this like minimalistic state of mind where I want the least amount of effect on the audio chain, right? 

I don't, I don't, I don't want to do. Repaint the picture. I just want to clean it up. Make, make people see it, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Like, if, like, if I'm gonna have to put, like, Dance or Cedar or something on it, like, I'm gonna, there's times where I'm gonna have to do it, 

but I shouldn't be doing it by default. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I love dance. I really do love dance. And I, I can't tell you the last time I didn't use it on Ravage. If I'm, if I'm on a ravage, I'm, I'm probably gonna use dance, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: but I'm gonna do it  

Andy Leviss: This show started to sound like it's a it's an ad for dance between like last week I was raving about it, too 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh man. I didn't catch last week,  

Andy Leviss: Yeah, no, it's it's uh, it's yeah I was and it's like the stuff it can take take out is like 

like because you think of like background noise But it's like it'll like I was saying last week. 

It'll take a bass amp buzz out Mm 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I mean, basically it's that, that learn mode. I mean, whatever it's hearing at that time is gone. It's gone. And, and you can choose how gone it is, but it's gone. And that's really cool. Um, a lot of times I'll, you know, get a whole, Oh, I'm sorry. 

Andy Leviss: Oh no, I was just saying, you can get real particular, like if you dial the, the bandwidth of where the filters are down, which both keeps it from messing with stuff you really don't want it to touch, and also then also makes those five filters or six filters it has even finer grain, because then they're like shared over a narrower area. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, so I'm really glad that it came to DM7 because I, I own DM7 now and, uh, can, can just mess with it all the time. And I, I'm constantly going back to old stems and shows that I mix, like, Oh my God, this would have been great to have right then. Um, but, uh, you know, a lot of times I'll take like an entire band bus, like just the whole band, right? 

Cause I like to have the whole band on one handle, right? I'll do a, bunch of like, bunch of stuff like grouping and whatever, but then I'll just have my one band bus. It's just like everything. And I'll, I'll insert dance on that band bus. Um, and, and just everybody leave their instruments on and don't touch them. 

Let's just, let's just run dance on this real quick and just clear the stage, right? Just kind of give them a blank canvas. Uh, guitar buzzes go away. Bass cab buzzes go away. Uh, that, that little. You know, resonant snare sound that's in every microphone goes away. It's it's great. That's Really  

Andy Leviss: I gotta try it on a, I gotta try it on a bus. 'cause I've, I've always done a even like, uh, like the thing I was doing at the Kennedy Center Apparat the other week, uh, like I said, I did like, I had a pile of choir mics and, you know, I was on monitors, so like going to ins, like I didn't want all that bleed going there 'cause I've got enough bleed from everything else. 

And yeah, I was putting on every individual, but I'm realizing, yeah, I probably could have just done a stereo bus of those and just popped it right on the bus. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: You know, sometimes, I mean, if you're getting it like for a broadcast feed or or ears, if you've got a lot of people sharing the same mix or something, you can throw it right on that. I mean, clearing that IEMs are going to generally have a little bit of a noise floor, and you can kind of clear that noise floor out a little and just make more room for the mix. 

If people can hear themselves clearer, they don't have to be so damn loud, right? 

Andy Leviss: Right on. And that's, yeah, like, likewise, like, always having the conversation of, like, I had a couple backup singers on that that I was, like, trying to teach about, like, Look, we've done soundcheck, the show's in an hour, don't make the change for tonight. But next time, I'd encourage you to put the second ear in, and here's why. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: Like, it's better for your ears long term, but also, then I can pan y'all and you can actually pick out your individual voices, which I can't when you're only in one ear. That's actually one that I didn't realize she had pulled out the ear, because it was the ear from the other side of where I was, so I was panning stuff into, like, stereo for her, and like, it sounded real like you could pick out each voice when I soloed her mix, and then she came off and I realized she only had one ear, and I was like, Were you okay? 

Like, did you, like, was the person on the other side of you, did they sound really soft in your ears? And she was like, no, everything sounded fine. I'm like, cool. Won't change a thing then. 

But  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: on. Yeah. I, um, I try so hard to get talent to just, just get used to being isolated in their ears. You know, um,  

Andy Leviss: yeah, it's like, I'll,  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: audience mics can really help with that. You know, it's, it's, it's like they're not hearing the stage noise and the just bullshit they're used to around them. 

Andy Leviss: yeah. And that was actually, even my question was audience. Like, how do you, when you, when, when you're doing monitors, how, how are you approaching audience mics? Are you writing them in and out? Are you leaving them in a bed? Are you doing any processing on that? Like, what's your, what's your personal, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: So my personal, usually I'll, uh, I'll duck them. I'll duck them to that, uh, to that same band bus. Um, and then, you know, When, you know, they stop playing, they ride right up, but I mean, I'll duck them lightly, I don't want them, I don't want them completely gone while they're playing, you know, um, having, uh, having some audience reaction really helps, but, uh,  

Andy Leviss: you know, just enough to like pull the PA out? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: absolutely, yeah, just to, just to pull the PA, pull, uh, you know, maybe that really loud mom downstage, you know, or something, you know, just, 

Andy Leviss: or like, like minimize that slap off the back wall. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: lady that's standing right next to those air  

Andy Leviss: Always, always, it's always the whistler.  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: that's it. That's it. 

Andy Leviss: I will say the most, just weird tangent on audience makes the most fun I ever had on a show. We, I was doing a Celia Cruz musical off Broadway years ago and they have like a bunch of reenactments of like her favorite concerts and the original, like I was the mixer, the original sound designer on it. 

Had actually mixed those concerts. So he had like actual crowd recordings from those concerts that he wanted to like bleed into the surrounds. But like, as we did that, it like, it definitely sounded like we were trying to like force the audience to applaud cause it was very obviously a recorded audience. 

So for other reasons, the sound designer ended up, uh, a replacement came in and the new guy was like, yeah, no, we're losing those, but here's what we're going to do. We're gonna take a pair of shotguns just like we would for in ears and put them down like just on the on the you know speaker booms at the front corners of the house and we're going to cross feed them to the surrounds on the opposite side and for those couple concert numbers you're just gonna have a DCA just of the and it was wild because I could literally with a fader push the audience out of their seats 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: just give me, just give me more clap. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, it was great. 

As soon as they start going, I would just slowly ride it in with them. And like, you had to learn the art of when to push it in and how so that it didn't sound fake. But once you did it, it just, it, it had that feedback loop of applause on it, cause each one was then they were hearing the other side bouncing off the wall more, and yeah, you could literally, like, cause a standing ovation with a fader. 

It was wild. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: That's crazy. Cool. 

Andy Leviss: Um, yeah, no, I had a feeling when I asked you that, you, you, from talking to you the last week and talking to you today, I'm like, he sounds like a ducker kinda guy, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. Um, you know, I, I do like to keep it in there. Um, people, people, uh, tend to really play better and enjoy playing. When they can get real feedback, you know, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and it's about the crowd and it does get, it's, that's that fine line you have to play if it gives you, it gives you a bit of the room and you gotta make sure it's not too much, cause then it gets distracting, but, It does, even when you get a little bit of those reflections and stuff off things, it makes you sound, feel more connected. 

I'm like, you don't have just, you know, your Walkman plugged into your head. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: exactly. And I mean, we're doing so much broadcast these days. Um, I can't remember the last gig that I was on that wasn't a record or a broadcast  

Andy Leviss: Mm hmm.  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Um, that, that, you know, you're going to want those mics anyway, so you're going to, you're going to want to put them out there. You need to have the room, might as well pipe them into ears too. 

Andy Leviss: Right on. Yeah, I recently did a corporate thing that I think I've talked about on here before that was, uh, uh, It was like a record, although not a stream, but they basically wanted to record like it was streaming. They were like, we don't care about hearing the room. Like, we just wanted to sound clean and clean. 

It's like an educational thing. So it was like, definitely a shift in perspective for in the, like, okay, which of the normal tricks do I do? Which of the things I normally wouldn't do, do I do now? And like, which, and, and yeah, like, yeah, you know what, listen, we're not going to bother with audience mics. 

Cause it's a small room and like, they want the recording clean. So we'll just, you know, we'll, we'll denoise the crap out of it. You know, run it through like a streaming, you know, processing plug in to get that nice hot level off the record, you know, which normally like when I had my When I had like Aram and Brian and everybody on and we were talking about corporate stuff before he said normally like for You'll do that for a live stream, but for a record you'll save that for later Cuz you know, you got a lot more ability to be judicious with it after the fact 

But Yeah. every once in a while  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: definitely the place to do that for records. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, but if they tell you, like, hey, we don't want that recording, we're gonna take it and we're throwing it up, you know, we're finishing it at 6pm and it's gonna be online by 8 tomorrow morning, it's like, alright, I'll process it like it's a stream then, here you go. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: That's awesome. 

Andy Leviss: Um, yeah, so like, what other, so like, I mean, you said you freelance now, like, mostly do this stuff, like, how long were you touring before you, before you kind of settled into more, like, the corporate stuff? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: So the first few years of my career, I was, uh, I was out with, uh, with bands. Um, and then I, I sort of started settling into a little bit more freelance. Um, I was doing local work really, um, and still taking the, uh, the occasional small tour, regional stuff, bus stuff. Um, but, uh, yeah, it just, it just sort of. I don't know, I got worn out from it quick, um, being on the road all the time, it's funny to say because I'm on the road all the time still, sort of, but, uh, a different kind of road, right? 

Um, I get to go home on a regular basis, uh, just being on the road just kind of sucked, um, in my opinion, you know, I, I, I love my tour family and, um, you know, still have a lot of great friends that tour actively, but, uh, yeah. You know, I'm a dad now. I'm a husband. I've got a house and I like it. I like being there. 

I like to have a little fire in my backyard and, you know, be home. Home is cool. Um, so, you know, um, I really had to find my, my sort of way to continue freelancing and still make it fun, right? Because the second you start freelancing, it's like, oh man, you know, I'm going to do DC only gigs or I'm going to do, you know, whatever. 

So. You know, I've got a, I've got a really nice, uh, nice group of clients that, um, that put me out regularly and I, I have fun. I still travel a lot. Um, you know, I, I get to go home, like I said, but, uh, I try to do 10 days out. At most normally don't want to miss too much. No, no, like, like I'll do 10 days. And  

Andy Leviss: Oh, like a ten day  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: days, yeah, 10 day stretch. 

Like, uh, as long as I've got a few days home, I'll go out for another few days or I'll go out for another 10 even, but, uh, I just want to show face every now and then, you know, my, my daughter's growing up and I want to, you know, make sure that I'm there. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, how old is she? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: She's six, a little six year old, another one on the way, 

Andy Leviss: Yep, we were talking about that the other day because I'm expecting my first 

around the same time your second's coming. so yeah, and that's it's, I mean, part of the reason I'm digging into that question is because that's the big thing I'm, you know, working through between now and the fall is, is what does work look like up until then, what does work look like after, and how to balance 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It changes, I'll tell you, it changes. Um, you know, uh, before, before kids, it was like, you know, I just, I wanted to be out all the time. I wanted to be doing, you know, what I love. And now I'm trying to figure out ways to continue to do what I love with, you know, More time with the people I love, right? So, uh, being, being home is, uh, you know, a very important thing for me now. 

So, uh, I try hard to say no to gigs every now and then. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, that's, that's been the big thing I've been, and, and as, like, listeners know, I made the pivot last year from, actually almost a year ago, from working, like, primarily in installs and doing, like, you know, gigs freelance on the side on top of that, to fully freelancing and figuring out that balance, and it's, it's a tradeoff, because it gives you that flexibility, and particularly doing, like, corporate stuff at, like, the day rates that, like, those, those markets tend to pay. 

You've got the option to like work a week or two and then take a couple weeks off and like make the same amount you are at some other, at some other gigs working, you know, 40 hours a week, but the trade off is the lack of predictability. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: And to, uh, yeah, I mean, I mean to kind of, uh, I hope it don't piss anybody off and, you know, some, some people might be, you know, you're completely wrong, but, uh, but the playing field is sort of leveling out between corporate and concert. I've noticed that corporate rates have sort of. Stayed the last few years and, uh, and concert rates have gone up. 

So, I mean, 

Andy Leviss: That's good to 

hear. That's because I'm not, I'm not as well tapped into the concert world and I know for a while the rates were like, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: uh, yeah. Oh, wait all day. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah. Um, there's still, there's, there's definitely still the companies that want the, you know, 400 audio guy that's going to break his back all day. But, um, I mean, I, I don't really have, uh, multiple rates. I mean, I've, I've got a day rate and that's it. And, uh, when I did that, some of the, uh, some of the concert. Oriented clients that I have sort of said, ah, we can't afford you. And I mean, I get it. It's fine. Um, then don't get me, get somebody else. And that's cool. And I I'm all for, you know, everybody's setting their rate and doing whatever, but I don't know. I just, I just think that my time is worth. My rate, period. 

You know, whether I'm, whether I'm hanging PA or, uh, or babysitting a lectern mic. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and that, that's the thing is there's, like, that's the eternal debate is like, is your day rate your day rate because you're paying for the knowledge, or is it like, well, you know, like the A1 is like more in the line of fire, so he should get more because they're mixing it like it's, and the debate goes both ways, and I'll say, I know where I've landed is most of the companies I work with, what I charge is what I charge. 

There's a couple that like, Depending on exactly who's doing the booking or what the gig is, there's sometimes like a little bit of pushback on certain things. And then there's one company I work with a lot, who I love working with, who they, for the most part, they have their rate, that is what they pay, and they pay one rate for like techs, one rate for RF and comms. 

And one rate for mixers, but all three of those rates are like a plus or minus 50 on like where my day rate usually fall, like where I would quote a day rate, you know, to somebody new. So it's like, it's not necessarily worth the battle over like that 50 swing the one way or another because of the amount of work they give me and like how great they are to work 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: the way I see it is don't call me a contractor and then tell me what you're gonna pay me. I don't hire a landscaper and say this is what I'm gonna pay you to do my yard, you know. Um, I, I I think that, you know, we have to hold ourselves to a, uh, to a standard and, and sort of say, this is what Joe McGrath costs. 

This is my, this is my company, you know, I, I run my work and, um, it's, yeah, it's hard. It's, it's definitely, uh, not ideal, uh, for, you know, client pushback, you know, sorry, we can't pay you that. Um, well, we can negotiate, we can figure it out, but, uh, I, I try hard to, uh, To really stick to my guns on my, uh, my rates. 

I think everyone should. I think, uh, you know, if we all, uh, if we all kind of set something, set a bar, you know, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, that's an and folks who are in the Discord saw, um, uh, Sean Raven snaps, he's a regular, uh, in the Discord, was just posting a screenshot of a text conversation he had yesterday, the day before, with somebody who, like, they didn't necessarily agree on a a solid rate in advance, which, you know, hindsight being 20 20, but, you know, in the text afterwards, the person was like, oh, this is more than I thought it was gonna be, like, that's not what I thought I had on file for you, like, can you can you do anything on it? 

And he was like, That's my rate. Like I worked a 10 hour day. Like, you know, it's not because of anything that went on. Like, I'm not like I charge what I charge regardless of what the day is. And also reminding you, here's the value I offer to you because I did this, this and this, that if you didn't have somebody there who knew how to do that, you'd have ended up having to bring a second person in and, and, and the end result was the client apparently came back and was like, all right, yeah, fair point. 

Not a problem. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I mean, you obviously have to weigh it. I mean, if this is a client that you're working with on a very regular basis, you know, have a, have a conversation with them, figure out where, where you guys can meet. But, uh, I mean, If it's a, if it's a client that you're willing to, you know, willing to lose, which is a hard thing to say. 

Um, you know, not, not all of us have the clients that we're willing to lose. Um, but if it's a client that you're willing to lose, I mean, push for your rate. It's, uh, it's important. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and like, there are things to balance out in that mix, for example, there's one company that you and I have both done work for that, depending on exactly the job, like some gigs for them I do get pushback on rate a little bit and they may not necessarily pay quite as much as like other clients I work for regularly, but on the other hand, the company that pays me higher, if I'm within like about an hour and a half radius of Manhattan, And because I live in the area and I'm considered a local, they're not paying me per DM, they're not putting me in front of room, whereas the other company often pays a little less, but they are always giving me a 75 per DM. 

They are almost always, you know, offering me a room if I need it, if we're going to have late calls. So like it, the math gets a little more complicated and you know, there's things you have to balance on any gig. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: So, um, just in the past few years, I put in my contract that I'm not local to anywhere. I don't, I don't have a local. I'm not, I'm not driving in and out of DC. I, I'm, I'm like, On no traffic day, which barely exists, I'm about a half an hour out of DC. Um, with traffic, I could be two hours from DC. Um, and I'm, I'm a, if you're not early, you're late kind of guy. 

Uh, so I'm battling traffic at five o'clock in the morning. I'm not, I'm not going to do that. I give me a hotel, put me up. If this gig is important that I'm there at 7 in the morning, make sure I'm there at 7 in the morning. I don't want to, I don't want to have to get up at 4 to do that. 

Andy Leviss: Yep. Yeah, and it's also interesting, like, I've done, I've done at least one gig where it started out working for one production company and then things shuffled and it ended up going to another production company, basically mostly using in house gear, but that production company was like, hey, Andy and this other guy were the guys we were going to have on these positions, they know the show, they know the space, they're now available that week. 

Just throwing that out there to you and the production reached out directly And like seeing what I was able to negotiate directly with production versus like what I know I would have gotten through the production company was interesting. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, that can be very interesting. That's actually how I started my, uh, my company. So I, I, uh, for, for a while I ran a labor company called Show Crew, um, out of DC. I still operate under Show Crew as a freelancer. And if, if, you know, the need arises, I do still But I wouldnt consider myself as a Labor coordinator at all, I kind of gave that up, stopped wearing that hat. 

But I remember kind of starting that company in 2009. And I was I kind of worked my way up the ranks in a company that I was freelancing for. Um, they went on a vacation and I had the, uh, Hey, can you check into the office and, you know, see what we've got going on. Can you clear invoices for us, et cetera. 

You know, so I, I sort of ended up with like a, a babysit the office sort of a thing while they were on vacation and saw an invoice come across or saw a bill come across, you know, Um, and it was like, they were making. The same rate I was on top of my rate. I mean, I, it was insane. It was insane to see that, you know, and I was just like, this is not cool. 

You know, I gotta, I gotta up my rate or I gotta figure something out. 

Andy Leviss: and like if they've got you as a W2, I get it. Cause like there's overhead there. Like there is certainly, and that was like a thing, like I've freelanced a little bit doing some small projects for the company I used to be full time for in the installs Kind of figuring out like, look, we both understand you're not going to pay me the hourly rate you used to. 

Cause I've now got the overhead, not you, but yeah. But when it's a company that's just marking up your, you know, your IC labor, 

like,  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: to me. Yeah. 

Andy Leviss: yeah, there's like, there's, there's some overhead there and like the booking, the coordinating, and that's all fair and reasonable, but like only to a certain, yeah, a hundred percent on top of it 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, I mean, uh, charging 800, paying 400 and, uh, you know, this is 2009, mind you,  

Andy Leviss: yeah, yeah.  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: those prices would go up, uh, nowadays, obviously. Um, yeah, it just, uh, it drove me, uh, drove me crazy, so, um, me and, uh, me and another tech, uh, started show crew, and, um, Yeah, we, we decided we were going to charge a lot less and, uh, and pay a lot more. 

We raised the rates in DC dramatically, uh, and it was, yeah, it was cool and, and it kind of stuck too, uh, you know, even now, you know, that we're not running a company anymore. Rates are still up, rates are still high, and, uh, and now everybody's a labor coordinator, right? There's a million  

Andy Leviss: Yeah.  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It was kind of like just two back then. 

Um, yeah. And you can decide which one I'm talking about. It doesn't matter. Right. But, uh, it was basically two back then. And they, they, they sort of, uh, had a stronghold on things. If you needed labor, you had to pay a bunch of money and they weren't paying guys great. So, so we did a thing. It was fun while it lasted. 

Andy Leviss: So, so here's a tangent on that. What do you, are, are there folks that like, whether they're friends or like, just like cool gigs or fun stuff that like, you know, can't pay your normal rate and that like, you're like, if I'm available, I'll do it for a week, can I get four? Because I like you and I want to like, because I want to hang with you 

or, or is it?  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: A hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, shout out to my buddy Ian, who is, uh, who's running an awesome production company right now. Ian McKennis, McKennis Events. He, uh, he's an awesome E2 op and he's just starting to, uh, really spread his wings and get into, uh, get into production more and, you know, bought a bunch of gear and stuff. 

And he's like, he's like, man, I've got these clients. I need, I need a good audio guy. I'm like, dude, I'm, I'm going to charge you nothing, man. I'm going to give you like the. Homey rate, we're going to figure this all out. So, I mean, I'm, I'm just, I'm always trying to lend a hand to, to good friends. I mean, I've got, I've got churches that I've worked with for a long time that obviously don't pay a ton, right? 

Churches aren't 

like the, uh, you know, thousand dollar day rate guys. But, um, 

Andy Leviss: Joel Osteen. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: yeah, uh, I won't say anything about that, uh, that area there. Um, I've definitely done some, some very large, uh, church stuff. I'll just say that, uh, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I'll still, I'll still help out. I'll still get in where I can, uh, and especially if I'm not, you know, booked or something, although I will tell them like, hey, listen, three day gig. 

Awesome. It's in the middle of the week. Cool. If I, for some reason get like, A 10 day thrown at me. That's, you know, big check or something. I'm going to talk to you about it. We're going to figure it out. We're, we're going to work it out. I won't leave you hanging. I'll find somebody else or I'll figure something out, but, uh, I might have to, uh, do some math there. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, like I feel like I've even once or twice over the years had jobs where like I had to back out and I was like, look, it's not a great rate because I was doing it as a favor. I will throw you some extra cash to make it, to make it worth your 

while to tag in for me because I need somebody I can trust. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Now, now completely opposite end. If I'm, if I'm working with a production company, right. Like, uh, and they book me for a two day gig. And for some reason, this 10 day gig comes up. Don't be the asshole. Don't cancel your two day gig. Keep the two day gig. You'll find another 10 day gig down the road. 

Just, just do the work. Don't, don't be that guy. 

Andy Leviss: That's, I mean, I had one a couple months ago that I'm, um, let me figure out how to tell the story without naming 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Exactly. Yeah, that's been my whole battle this whole episode. I'm like, uh, what do I say? How do I not say this? 

Andy Leviss: yeah, um, but yeah, I, where, like, I booked a corporate gig in advance, so it was, like, a small thing, but for a client, uh, uh, end client that is just always, like, it's always a little bit of a wild card, and so, like, once you know how they work and what you're in for, like, that's worth a lot, even if all you're doing is, like, a ribbon cutting or a red carpet, like, tangential to the 

main event. And over those dates, while that client was hemming and hawing, I got a call asking if I could do, um, you know, like monitor tech and RF coordination for a major act at a major, we'll say, often very soggy jazz festival. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Right on. 

Andy Leviss: Um, and it was one of those like, oh man, I would love to do that. Like the, the mixer on it, who, who you and I both worked with in the last few, few days is like a good friend who like, I always love hanging with and working with. 

I was just like, I really want to do it, bub. Like call me for the next one, but I'm committed to this thing. And like, I just texted them to see if it's actually happening. So they haven't confirmed. And they're like 90 percent sure it is. And, and of course, as soon as, as soon as I said that and committed to that, and he found somebody else, that was when they were like, Hey, so they just cut the ribbon cut. Although to their credit, they then immediately said, but we've got you a cancellation fee. So we're going to, you know, we're going to get you like a chunk of what you were going to make anyway, because we know you turned another thing down for us. And then before, as they sent the PO, one guy in the office sent the PO for the cancellation fee. 

The other person said, wait, hold on. I think I actually need him back in a different city. Give me a minute. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Nice. 

Andy Leviss: And it ended up working out, but yeah, that's always that trade off. And, but I asked the earlier question too, cause I've got like a couple of friends who like, I used to work for all the time, like many, many years ago and like periodically call. 

And it's one of those, like in a couple of them, cause like everybody's switching to all these like online booking systems. Now you see every job that comes across and like what rate they're offering, if they're offering a rate. And it's like figuring out how to that conversation of like, look, dude, I really want to work with you. 

Like if there's stuff that. You really specifically, like, think you can use me for? Let me know. But, like, we've either got to talk on Raid, or it's gonna be one of those, like, If I don't have anything else going on, I'm happy to do it and hang with you. But, like, if it's a season when I know I'm gonna be busy, I can't take it two months in advance. 

Cause, you know, you can only pay, like, half of what I'm likely to be able to make. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: And what I always try to do is even, uh, even in that, uh, scenario or when working with a friend or anything, um, I always try to, on my invoice, I will still put my entire day rate. 

Andy Leviss: Mm hmm. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: and then I'll put a discount, um, that I, that I've given them a discount on this. Right. So I, I'm, you're not going to get me for that rate on a regular basis. 

Um, I, I even do that with, you know, production companies that I work with, um, you know, for the first time or something, you know, if they're like, Hey, yeah, we usually pay our, you know, front of house guys, this 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: that's cool. My rate is this, but. I'll do it for this, and I'll put it as a discount code, but do not put that in your computer as this is my rate from here on out, that's not, uh, that's not the way it's gonna go, so, 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and I'll even give credit to, I've had a couple companies that have outright said like, look, tell us what your rate is, and when I tell them, they're like, for this one, we can't do that, I'm gonna put you in your system at that rate, so like, that's where the conversation starts next time, so you don't have to again, but can you take this much this time? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: One of the problems is if the conversation starts next time, right? So, um, I've got a production company that I've worked with for a couple of years, and, uh, last year I bumped my rates, and, um, I got a lot less work from them, and I reached out, um, maybe, uh, I think it was probably January. You know, I'm normally January. 

I'm trying to figure out my year, see what's going on. I'm like, Oh, what am I going to do for the spring? It normally all falls into line, but you know, I still have those little panic modes where it's like, I got to feed the family. So, um, I reached out and I was like, Hey, why, why aren't I getting. You know, as much work from you guys, you know, my, my revenue from company X has gone down by 60 percent this year or something. 

And they're like, well, we just don't want to pay that rate. I mean, we can't pay that rate all the time. I'm like, well, still reach out, reach out and say, Hey, could you do it at this rate? And who knows? Maybe I'm, maybe I am available. Maybe I, you know, Hey, let's do it. And maybe I say no, but. Make the call still. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It's, it's, it's a little, uh, a little bit of a game, right? 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, it always is. And it's, that's, that's like one of the big tricky things with going freelance is like learning how to do all that. Cause like when you, like if, if you're staffed somewhere, you don't really have to think about that. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, 

Andy Leviss: And I mean, and that's, I mean, that's, and sometimes that's the reason people do make that pivot the other direction and go staff, they're like, you know what? 

I'm making less of an hourly rate, but I know exactly what I'm making every year. I know there should be enough work there. You know, I may not even like, if it's for a production, I still may not exactly know my schedule. But I know that the schedule will fill in enough and then at the end of the year This is what I'm coming home with 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: In the past couple of years, I've had some, uh, very significant salary offers to, uh, to become staff, um, to join the team, to drink the Kool Aid. But, um, I, I am, I am extremely ADHD and, uh, I, I,  

Andy Leviss: what? a sound engineer? I'm  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Wait, neurodiversity in our industry? No way. But, uh, I, I cannot imagine myself waking up and seeing the same people every day, right? 

Like, uh, I, I'm, I'm a lot, and I know I'm a lot, right? I've got a, I've got a big personality, I talk a lot, I'm loud, uh, but, uh, anyone, anyone that I meet, For the first week or something, you know that they love me. I'm, I'm, I'm a, you know, I'm a big personality. It's great. But, uh, after that week, it probably wears off pretty quick, right? 

They're like, Oh, this guy doesn't shut up. He's always like this. Like, what's, what's going on, man? So I, I, I know to limit myself with, uh, you know, connection. 

Andy Leviss: There you go, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, it's, it's good. It's 

Andy Leviss: I'm and I'm I'm thinking back on this week and like the combination of like characters we had on our crew this week was like it was awesome but it was like there were a lot of a lot of big personalities like not not in a bad way I feel like big personality can also be a euphemism for for bad things and I don't mean it that way at all 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: No, no, no. It, it was a, it was a motley crew. It was great. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I couldn't imagine living with those guys, you know, having lunch with them every day. You know, I, I feel, I, I know they would feel the same way about me,  

Andy Leviss: yeah, yeah we're all acquired tastes  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: like there's a, uh, there's a personality that, that, uh, strives in, you know, environments like, uh, you know, in-house and there's. 

Personalities that thrive in, you know, environments like that.  

Andy Leviss: yeah  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I, I'm definitely the latter. I'm not, I'm not a, uh, I'm not a house guy. I'm, I'm, I'm a freelancer and I love it. I wouldn't change it for the world. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, well like, Sean and I were talking last week about also like just the Jack of All Trades or Jill of All Trades versus like having one specialty and like you were kind of touching on that a little earlier of like, you primarily mix but you'll do kind of whatever you need to and I feel like that variety sometimes helps too. 

It's like, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Within, within reason. So I'll do anything in the audio department. I am an audio human. Um, so when I started out, you know, I was obviously, you know, getting my start as a Freelance dude, uh, stagehand, right? I started with Local 22 in DC, um, with IATSE and, uh, well, actually I started at, uh, Nissan Pavilion, now Jiffy Lube Live, um, as a box pusher and, and made it to, you know, a loader. 

Um, but, uh, it was, it was really, you know, getting, getting the idea of the industry, right? And then, and then moving into, you know, a little bit more corporate y freelancing stuff. I was, I was doing a lot of, Breakout room op and stuff like that and I realized pretty much then that the people who were across departments, right, that the guy who's like, I do video, I do lighting, I do audio, you're going to end up becoming like a breakout lead, like, I don't know, I don't know anybody in the room. The upper echelon of their career, right? Or their department, right? I, um, real prominent figures in audio or lighting or video that are. Those jack of all trades, right? Because, because I don't have a lot of room in this head, right? I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn everything I can about audio first, and then if there's some room to know what a DMX does, I'll, I'll figure it out, right? 

So, but, uh, I, I try hard to just stick to my department, um, which is audio and the, the, uh, I feel like, I feel like if I was to try to, I, I learned vMix, I don't like to admit it, I learned vMix, um, it was, but from an audio man's perspective, um, I, I learned, I learned vMix and  

Andy Leviss: home, 12 Hail Marys, you'll be absolved. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: headless audio system, it was kind of cool, it was pretty fun, um, but, uh, basically, I, I, I just, I don't want to be the guy that's called for anything else, um, but I. 

I don't, I don't want to have that much department knowledge. That means, that means I'm not learning my job enough, right? I, I, if I've got room to learn more AV, I'm going to learn more audio. 

Andy Leviss: I guess the jack of all sub trades, I guess would be the way to put it, like within audio and like, cause I know like I tend to like these days, I spend a bunch of time A1ing, mixing, you know, a bunch of time doing RF coordination or a bunch of time doing, like, Riedel Intercom. And like, I enjoy doing both and I could probably make a specialty out of any of those three, but I also enjoy the variety of, you know, bouncing between the three. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: like I've, I've definitely like, I've been like tapering off in the, like, just straight up, like, A2 without the coordinator role in, because like, I'm fine at it and I'm good at it. 

And like, as particularly as a mixer, you know exactly what you need to do for that. But like, there are other people who have more of that, like, You know, personality for like, you know, bantering and making folks feel super comfortable. Like, I can do it for a day or two. Like, I don't want to do that all the time. 

And it's not, it's not an, I'm better than that. It's like, there are people who are better at that than me. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Yeah, no, I, I get it. And, um, and that's actually a role that I love. I, I love being the, uh, the A2. I love being the guy who's, who's the support act, right? Um, 

I, I really think my, my favorite position is front of house. Um, and I'm really good at my job. I like, I like being at front of house, but, uh, uh, monitors. 

Awesome, awesome. You get so much more, uh, so much more of a picture, right? You really understand the band, the inner mechanisms, every, everybody's communication. I mean, you're, you're there. You're part, right? It's, it's  

Andy Leviss: And like monitors, if you, if you do it well and it's a cool band, you're getting that string of high fives when 

they come  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: absolutely. Oh, 

Andy Leviss: you're not getting that do in front of 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I love working with great bands, man. There's some, there's some really great acts out there. I, I did a, uh, a festival, uh, recently, um, and, uh, I guess I can mention bands, right? Yeah, um, a band, the, uh, the Wood Brothers came out and, uh, they were amazing people. Um, you know, their music was phenomenal as well. 

Their, their performance was phenomenal, but they were just people first, right? So, um, it was a Crappy, rainy day, outdoor gig, muddy, and uh, they basically got to soundcheck and they were like, we know what we're doing already, um, do you just want to have a hot toddy with us? And just, you know, brought out the kettle. 

It was great, man. It was absolutely great. Yeah. 

Andy Leviss: That's also the best feeling at the gig I was doing down in D. C. the other week. Uh, one of the acts on that was Toshi Regan, who, uh, like, particularly if you're from New York, like, most folks in New York know Toshi. She's not as well known outside there. She's been around forever. Her band is all, like, tight players, tight backup singers. 

And I had done a gig as, like, house, you know, A1 with, like, her regular mixer coming in with her back in December. So, like, I knew them a little bit. And then this one I was the monitor mixer on. And like, uh, Fred, her bassist is like, he's awesome. He's like a super cool dude. He's like super demented. Like he was the one who had all the requests for like, nah, I need, nah, I need more of this. 

I need less of that. And it was like the whole time I'm like, oh man, Fred's, Fred's cranky with me. Fred's, Fred's not happy. And then like, literally as they come off the stage, he comes up and he just grabs me and gives me a big bear hug. And he's like, that was awesome, man. Great work. Thank you. 

And I was like, I feel like I've won the game at that 

point when the guy who's sitting here like just asking for all the stuff and like Kind of giving me scowls occasionally comes off and gives me the big bear hug. 

Like I guess I'm doing something, right? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah, uh, I mean, when you're, when you're in the middle of, of mixing, you're in the middle of the gig, it's like there's so much going on, there's so much happening around you, there's so much stress, there's so many sources of stress, and you might be, you might be dug into a specific horn sound or something, and uh, You don't really see the bigger picture. 

You don't see all the, all the just amazing energy around you, amazing things happening around you. And, uh, you know, to, to know that you did something at the end of it, it's, it's nice. It's really a nice thing to have the, uh, artist or other production staff just, you know, Oh man. Yeah. Like I love a wheels up party, you know? 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and and and you know if they're like asking for changes It's easy cuz like all you're doing is oftentimes focusing on what what they need and what they're unhappy about So, from your perspective, it's really easy to get caught up in the, well, they're just unhappy. Whereas, like, you forget that, like, you're cycling through six people's, like, little 

bits of  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: fixing those mistakes. Yeah. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Whereas, like, 90 percent of the time, like, when you're dealing with, or 80 percent of the time, when you're dealing with the other four members of the band, that guy's happy. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: absolutely. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, it's, it's easy to lose that perspective. That's, that's important to keep in mind. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: For sure. 

Andy Leviss: Uh, so I'll give you one last, cause it's, it's a, well, actually two then, cause one you brought up earlier that I'd started to ask folks at the end of every episode and I've sort of fallen off doing that, so I'm gonna do it again. 

Uh, what, what is one mistake from, uh, from coming up in the business that if you could go back and undo or warn somebody else off of, uh, is, is there one you're willing to share? Maybe names change to protect the innocent? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: No, no, no, um, I, I love sharing mistakes. I mean, at, uh, we all, we all learn from each other's mistakes more than, more than anything really. Um, you know, I, I just wish I took more time. Early on to learn, you know, the inner workings of sound. I would never call myself an SE. I'm not, I'm not a systems engineer, but, you know, I hang PA and I can tune a room and I love smart and, you know, the Rational guys are phenomenal and gals, right? 

But the Rational folk are homies. I wish I took more time to learn about just the fundamentals of audio, uh, before diving in, right? Um, learning on the job was definitely, definitely more useful, right? You really find your use cases immediately when you absolutely need them. But, uh, uh, knowing, knowing proper gain staging, understanding, you know, What exactly is happening at the preamp side, um, at the fader, at the, at the PA, you know, where, where things can and will go wrong. 

Um, I, I just, yeah, I wish, I wish I put more time into books early. 

Andy Leviss: Right 

on and then the one the one up the one other question I'll ask that I wish I'd had you to ask two weeks ago before I was down in that area But uh, we're coming down to DC to do a gig. Where do we go eat? 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh man, I wish you asked me that a couple years ago. Um, so, uh, there's phenomenal food in DC. I mean, we've got Michelin restaurants everywhere. Um, I mean, you're a New Yorker. You've got nominal restaurants everywhere. I, you know what, I'd probably say like, let's, let's go to like some of like the little taco spots, man. 

We've got, we've got some crazy, and you know what, El Salvadorian food, man. We've got a huge El Salvadorian population in the DC area. And if you haven't had good  

Andy Leviss: Ethiopian still big down 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It is,  

Andy Leviss: like Adams Morgan used to have like a whole pocket 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: They, yeah, they still, they still have a nice, uh, nice culture down there and, uh, tons of good food. Um, there's, there's a spot in, uh, what is it, uh, I guess it's kind of near GW called, uh, called, uh, Me and You with a, with a U. 

Um, that's, uh, a really awesome Ethiopian spot. But no, tacos, man. Tacos or, or pupusas. I, I'm a big fan of pupusas, man. I'm like, 

Andy Leviss: Wait, wait. Okay. What is a osa? 'cause I feel like I'm thinking of the 

rap with a baby in it. I'm like, that's a different thing. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: So it's, it's like, um, so it's, it's, it's a pocket of amazingness, right? . Um, so the, uh, the posa loca is a, um, it's, uh, pork beans, cheese inside of a, um, like dough. I guess it's, I guess it's maize flour, I believe. Uh, and then, and then fried. It's so good. It's like, it's like a stuffed pita.  

Andy Leviss: Ah, that sounds kinda like there. There's a, a place, there's a place here New York called Los Tacos Num Uno. And they do, and they're of the school that like a taco doesn't have cheese. And a quesadilla isn't what you think of as a quesadilla. It's a taco with cheese. With a, with cheese melted into the shell before they put the filling in. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh, man. 

Andy Leviss: and they're all, and soft tacos, but they do one called the Espeso, which I, you know, my six and seven, they did Spanish butchers the pronunciation, uh, but it is, they take, they take just the flour tortillas, stuff it full of cheese, crimp the edge and drop it in the deep fryer so it puffs up  

Joe "Chef" McGrath: I wish you told me about this a few days ago. 

Andy Leviss: then for a couple bucks extra, then they'll, they'll cut it open and like put meat in it. 

And it's one of those, like, it is so egregiously bad for you, but so egregiously good. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Man, I'll be in L. A. in a couple of weeks, and I'm actually looking forward to some, uh, some of the amazing tacos out there. 

Andy Leviss: Nice. Yeah, so, so folks who've been keeping track and have been saying we haven't been talking about tacos enough to officially be signal to noise, we're, 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Oh, no, I did it. I brought up tacos. Oh, man. 

Andy Leviss: No, it's all, it's all good. That's your fulfilling the quota right there. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: It's just you and me here, man. I forgot I was on a podcast, you know. 

Andy Leviss: No, that's all. That's all good. Like I said, if we don't talk about tacos too, it becomes an issue with the, with the contract, actually, we're required to at a certain point. 

Joe "Chef" McGrath: Good stuff,  

Andy Leviss: That's the, the, the the couple of things we're required to do is we've got to talk about tacos at least every few episodes, and then at the end of the episode, we've got to say thanks to Allen and Heath and RCF for sponsoring us. Thanks to Joe for hanging out with us for the last hour or so. Thanks to everybody for listening. 

And that's how you segue into saying, we'll see you next week. Take care, everybody.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green