287. The Return Of Mix Engineer Wayne Pauley

Veteran mix engineer Wayne Pauley returns the show in Episode 287 to talk with the hosts about his experience mixing RCF’s Ultimate Jam Night showcase at NAMM, and doing it in the inimitable “Wayne Pauley style” — in other words, as analog as possible! This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

Wayne also talks about touring with an RCF TT+ Audio PA as well as his love for ATI Paragon II consoles, sharing the story of his one-of-a-kind custom half-desk Paragon made by FOH engineer and analog console whisperer Chris Mitchell. In addition, he offers some first-class advice on how to make your reverbs sound perfectly subtle, and much more!

Episode Links:
Signal To Noise, Episode 57: FOH Engineer Wayne Pauley On His Analog Approach & More
Analog Rejuvenation: The Joy Of Getting Back To Basics By Wayne Pawley
Measure Six Times, Cut Once: The Process Of Downsizing An ATI Paragon II Console By Chris Mitchell
The Days Of Rosewood & Iron: Restoring And Enhancing An Early ’80s Mixer By Chris Mitchell
Signal To Noise, Episode 35: FOH Engineer Chris Mitchell
Signal To Noise, Episode 46: Mix Engineers Chris Mitchell & Chris Rabold
Episode 287 Transcript

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Transcript

Episode 287 - Wayne Pauley Jams at NAMM with RCF

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, whose new dLive RackUltra FX upgrade levels up your console with 8 next-generation FX racks – putting powerful tools like vocal tuning, harmonizing, and amp simulation right at your fingertips. Learn more at allen-heath.com 

RCF and TT+ AUDIO.... Delivering premium audio solutions designed for tour sound and music professionals for over 75 years. Hear TT+ AUDIO's GTX 10 and GTX 12 line passive line array and the GTS 29 dual 19" passive subwoofer.... all powered by RCF's XPS 16k amplifier, live in the arena at Winter NAMM 2025. Many other RCF products will be demo'd in Hall A in room #17108. Visit RCF at RCF-USA.com for the latest news and product information.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green 

Andy Leviss: Hey, welcome to another episode of Signal in the Eyes. I'm your host, Andy Leavis, and with me, the Uncle Joey to my Uncle Jesse, Sean Walker. What's up, Sean? 

Sean Walker: Jesus, Andy, 

Andy Leviss: No, you're supposed to say cut it out. 

Sean Walker: cut it out. Did you just age us all right there, dude? I was, 

Andy Leviss: probably, well, they had like Fuller House, right? Like recently, apparently. 

Sean Walker: Dude. 

Andy Leviss: When the shows come back around a second time, that's when you know you're old. 

Sean Walker: Oh my gosh, dude. My wife's been on the friends reruns flop recently, and I'm just like, dude, leave it in the nineties. Like, what are we doing, 

Andy Leviss: Have you ever seen there's somebody on like YouTube who, who put together, they've removed the laugh tracks from friends. It's, 

Sean Walker: I don't YouTube much, but I gotta be 

Andy Leviss: it's, it's, it's worth it. Cause it's like everything that seems hilarious when you're watching with a laugh track when there's no laugh track, you're like this. Isn't actually funny. 

Sean Walker: Okay. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. And there's just like lots of awkward pauses after lines that like clearly there was a laugh track here that made you think it was funny, but it's not. Actually it's, it's a bizarre, it's actually, it's actually an interesting exercise in the power of sound design to loop it back on topic, 

Sean Walker: All right. All right. That's cool. It's an exercise that I probably won't ever get to execute, bro. I'm way too busy to be firing up YouTube and spending hours watching videos. 

Andy Leviss: yeah, I, I, it's, I, I need, I need like two minute bursts of entertainment in between little dude napping here. Cause I'm on. I'm in stay at home dad mode for a couple weeks, so, 

Sean Walker: All right. All right. Well, when you get tired of staying at home, bro, you, I'll fly you out here and you can do some stupid shit for me. 

Andy Leviss: I mean, anytime. 

Sean Walker: Stupid shit, bro. I mean, last time you were here was a 24 hour day for you, bud. Like why you get, why would you start again? 

Andy Leviss: I mean, there, 

Sean Walker: weren't even working then. You weren't even working. 

You were just flying and drinking. 

Andy Leviss: of, lots of great, lots of great free food on the cruise ship the week after, so that was a solid. 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Andy Leviss: That was I'm telling you if you're gonna work on a cruise ship get put on as a passenger not as crew It's the way to go 

Sean Walker: There you go. Giddy 

Andy Leviss: Particularly when they tell you for like weeks in advance They give you all the packet like they're putting you on as crew so you're expecting the worst and then you're like well You're in a shitty cabin with no windows, but otherwise you get all the guest perks. 

It's You do a victory dance around the boat, and then you get lost and can't find your way back to the room because it's in the butt of the boat, but, I 

Sean Walker: All right. Fair enough. I've, I've only been on two cruises in my life and I was definitely the passenger both times. I never worked in a boat, but 

Andy Leviss: that's also a way to do it, but if you, if you can get those perks of like, at least the meals, and, you know, the, and the other stuff as a passenger without having to pay for it, and getting paid to be there, highly recommend it. 

Sean Walker: there you go. Giddy up. 

Andy Leviss: But, uh, 

Sean Walker: Giddy up. 

Andy Leviss: speaking of old things that are still, still doing solid jobs, 

Sean Walker: Oh shit. Really? That's where you went with that? That was the 

Andy Leviss: no, we have no, we have, we have a, a returning guest, uh, not new to the show, but new to Sean and me on the show. Um, our, our favorite crazy hippie, Mr. Wayne Pauly is joining us this week. What's up, Wayne? 

Wayne Pauley: What's up? 

Andy Leviss: So we had, we had a couple of technical snafus on the way here, but we got Wayne on, we're going, 

Wayne Pauley: Well, like I said, I'm 

Sean Walker: It was, it was my fault. 

Wayne Pauley: inclined person, as everyone, anyone who knows me will know. 

Sean Walker: It was my fault. I've been married long enough to know it's my fault. Whatever it was. 

Wayne Pauley: And that is why I live alone! Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe 

Andy Leviss: wrong. 

Sean Walker: Oh 

Andy Leviss: No, but we've, we've been, we've been playing like schedule tag to try and get Wayne on since we were out at NAMM, because we were gonna try and record in person at NAMM, and then some scheduling snafus beyond our control happened, so we had to reschedule, and Wayne is, is, Cranking out shows with Lee Bryce these days So we've been like kind of texting every time he's home for a couple days and seeing what we can make happen And we finally lined it up. 

So we wanted to catch up both just Generally on like what you've been up to since since last time you were here and introduce you to listeners You've come on since last time you were here, but also you mixed an insane ass Showcase show for RCF that we talked about a little bit at NAMM and we want to kind of dig into what that show was about and how you wrangled that insanity. 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah. Let's, let's talk about NAMM for a minute. Holy crap. That was awesome. Like, so obviously I'm not the youngest guy around and I grew up with a lot of those bands and those songs, like those were, you know, so for anyone who doesn't know the, the NAMM show was, uh, It was incredible. Uh, it was a sponsored event by RCS who did an amazing job. 

Love them all. Tarek, you're my man. Uh, but, uh, they hosted this, um, Ultimate Jam Night. And you can look into it. There's an enormous backstory to it. Uh, Pauly Z doing a great, great, great work with the charity and the whole bit. But this thing was essentially, it was the ultimate eighties, some nineties, and even older than that, uh, rock stuff and. 

I want to say there was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 to 30 different songs and every single song was a different set of performers. Like every single song, like it's one song, set change, you know, keep in mind the set change lasted about 90 seconds. But it was just a constant, uh, new band, new band, new band, new band. 

Obviously it wasn't whole bands. It was, um, collections of fantastic players and singers and the whole bit, but just from that, uh, and then adding in all this other stuff to it, to make it just, it's an epic event, man. It was, um, 

Andy Leviss: like, there was like a children's choir and 

Wayne Pauley: so here's the, here's the, uh, here's the technical backstory. 

Andy Leviss: yeah, give us the rundown. 

Wayne Pauley: It was one drum kit, uh, uh, two racks, two floors, the whole compliment, two bass rigs, two pairs of stereo keys, five guitar rigs, a 30 person, uh, orchestra. 

And an 80 member choir, uh, 30 of which were adults and 50 of which were children. And there were 10 sets of steel drums. Like if that wasn't enough, 

Sean Walker: 10 sets, not one set of 10 drums, 10 sets 

Wayne Pauley: 10 players, 10 steel drum players with 

Sean Walker: What, are we in the Bahamas, bro? 

Wayne Pauley: Well, I mean, it was the, the, that's there. Not everything was there all night long. So they would come and go according to which song was being played. 

So the, uh, The steel drum bit, the most popular bit, was like the last song of the night they did Baba O'Reilly. So the, the, the steels are playing all those key parts at the top of the show. And it was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. 

Sean Walker: Dude, totally. 

Wayne Pauley: Anyway, 

Andy Leviss: I mean, when, when literally you're on a bill at NAMM going up against John Batiste performing and you upstage John Batiste, like you're doing something right, man. 

Wayne Pauley: it was a good day. It was a good day, Dewey. It was a good day. 

Andy Leviss: So what, what was, what was the fun? Cause I know I, so surprising nobody. Wayne, you brought your console out, right? 

Wayne Pauley: Actually, it wasn't my personal console. Uh, 

Andy Leviss: really? 

Wayne Pauley: wasn't. Um, 

Andy Leviss: You found another working one. 

Wayne Pauley: not only did I find another working one, it was the most pristine version of that desk I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, even 

Sean Walker: Wayne, where do I send the check for that? 

Wayne Pauley: Uh, it was a, it was originally Dave Chidone's desk and, uh, it was, um, at one point it was a monitor desk on the stones, well, years and years and years ago when the British guys were doing it before Bull and those guys took over. Um, but it would have been a sound image desk forever and ever and ever. And I didn't even know the thing existed to be honest with you, or I would have bought it 10 years ago. But, uh, 

Andy Leviss: So we should, we should rewind for the folks who haven't heard previous shows with you on and tell everybody what desk we're talking about. 

Wayne Pauley: uh, the disk is in, uh, an A, uh, ATI. It's a Paragon, but it's a Series 2. It's called a Paragon P2M. It's actually a monitor console. 

Andy Leviss: That's the, that's the model I've had my hands on. That's the one 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah. Well, it was the more reliable of the two. The P2P, the front of house version, uh, we can talk about that at a different time. It just, it wasn't, it wasn't very reliable, but the monitor version was, it's, you know, I'll, I'll still use one right now, like on the road. 

Andy Leviss: the only issue I ever had with the one that I was occasionally responsible for was like, The last four or five channels sometimes the ribbon connectors would get a little in like nowadays I know I would have opened it up and just hit him with some hot glue to keep him from coming out But I didn't know that back then So there was lots of like pulling the last couple faders out and re receding ribbon connectors, and then it was fine 

Wayne Pauley: So without getting into too much techno babble, uh, the underside of those, uh, have every eight channels has a motherboard that's attached to the frame on the, on the bottom section, the bottom, the bottom half of the desk where the faders are. And, uh, so those, those, um, eight channel banks of motherboards that are underneath, uh, because the desk flexes a little bit, it's all made of aircraft aluminum, the, those where those sections meet, uh, they tended to flex a little bit too much. 

So what, um, some of the guys, including my dear friend, Rex Ray, love you, Rex. Uh, just figured out a way to put, uh, little tiny spacers underneath the mounts to hold them basically to hold them up, you know, at 30 seconds when he's taller. So when the console flex, those didn't flex so far out of perspective or out of skew that you ended up with a ground issue. 

So it wasn't a hard fix, but it took a brain to figure it out, which was definitely not mine. But they're pretty solid now. You know, you, you have a real grounding scheme and, uh, you know, some, some modern, uh, help with it. And, uh, it's been pretty solid knock on wood. So anyway, 

Andy Leviss: they're great sounding console and for those who aren't familiar with them Like we're spoiled nowadays with digital consoles like you can have a comp and a gate on every channel of a console easy Back in the analog days, that wasn't the way. And so the thing that's really cool about the Paragon is it's got dynamics on every channel, which means. 

It's a dumb heavy desk, but it was super powerful. 

Wayne Pauley: it's, it's 1100 pounds. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, that's 

Sean Walker: me or the desk? I'm sitting right here, Wayne. Jesus, man. 

Andy Leviss: I'll save it 

Sean Walker: I've been going to the gym, dude. I've been going to the 

Wayne Pauley: all the above. 

Sean Walker: ha ha ha ha ha. 

Andy Leviss: also the size of sean's cups 

Sean Walker: Right. Right. Right. 

Andy Leviss: That's i'm the only one sitting here with a baby trying to nurse on me right now 

Sean Walker: Yeah, right. Oh my god, that's 

Andy Leviss: But um, 

Wayne Pauley: Anyway, 

Sean Walker: where did that, where did that desk end up? So it's somebody else's desk, 

Wayne Pauley: a guy in South Florida. Um, and, uh, 

Sean Walker: so that's where I send the check. 

Wayne Pauley: Yes, yes. And, and to be honest with you, like I said, had I known 10 years ago, I'd have bought the desk myself. I'd never seen anything this clean. Like even to the point where the stencils, the paint stencils on the surfaces don't even have scratches. 

Like it looks, um, anyway, uh, I was, uh, Sean is the guy's name. Uh, and he was nice enough to, uh, uh, let me use it in Anaheim. The shipping was a little, uh, interesting, but we got it done. So I shipped it all the way from Nashville to, uh, Anaheim and then back to Nashville and then to South Florida. And he got it and it's all, it still looks brand new. 

But it was just, it was a, it's a, uh, good God. What a great experience. I mean, just. As I told some of the guys at RCF, when they started the show, like one of the first songs out of the box is crying in the rain by white snake. And, uh, you know, the orchestra is going behind him and the whole thing. And I looked over at one of the guys here and I'm like, I was born for this. 

Sean Walker: That's awesome. 

Wayne Pauley: It was just, it was incredible, man. It was incredible. 

Andy Leviss: that's I definitely remember a moment where you looked over your shoulder and were like, what am I hitting spl? You're like no no c not a 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, no, no. What's the, what's the seaway. 

Andy Leviss: give me the real number 

Wayne Pauley: Right. 

Andy Leviss: again for the for those who haven't listened to the show before they're The, the Rational Acoustics folks have what they call the Wayne Pauly rule, which is how much headroom you need to not clip out on an SPL measurement at the level of shows that Wayne mixes. 

Sean Walker: You know, having stood in front of your show many times at this point, Wayne, they're not that loud. 

Wayne Pauley: It's 

Sean Walker: they're loud rock shows, but they're not that loud. 

Wayne Pauley: all a matter of making the thing sound. 

Sean Walker: Totally. And they're pretty stunning, stunning shows. 

Wayne Pauley: Thank you. You're too kind. Thank 

Sean Walker: they're not that loud. Although it is, that one show we did in, where were we at? Round Rock, Texas, 

Wayne Pauley: Oh, yeah, 

Sean Walker: The, the hot one where we almost died? 

Wayne Pauley: Is that was that the one with the storm that blew over the tents and we almost died? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 

Sean Walker: yeah, till, and then it was like 104 in the shade? That was one of the best sounding shows I've heard in my life. It was one of those like, I remember standing behind you in front of the house going, I'm gonna put my console at the table saw. Like, what am I doing here with my life? the fuck out of here. I'm cancelled, bro. I don't know what to do with it. 

Wayne Pauley: no, don't stop 

Sean Walker: You know, but it's like, no, it's, it's, it's cool though. I'm, I'm totally good to admit it. I'm a great mix engineer. My mixes sound great. And then you hear somebody who is world fucking class and you go, no man, that's a, that guy's on another level. That's killer dude. 

Wayne Pauley: Man, I'm 

Sean Walker: you do hap, 

Wayne Pauley: here, honestly. Uh, you know, I've been very, 

Sean Walker: happy to have you. 

Wayne Pauley: I've been very blessed with, uh, a lot of great people, uh, who've helped me along the way and, um, you know, just very blessed. 

Sean Walker: What are some things that we can do to help our listeners along the way that are maybe some common mistakes or common things that you see today that you wish people would stop fucking doing and messing up their mixes? Or what are some things that you're like, Hey man, here's a few things that really helped me or really helped me make it come together. 

Other people could do 

Wayne Pauley: This is, this is actually going to sound kind of ridiculous and somewhat. I really think it gets back to some very basic principles. Um, this is just my opinion, and it's nothing more. But in my opinion, if you have 40 inputs, hypothetically, and 24 of those inputs have 2 or 3 or 4 plug ins on them, you either have the wrong microphone, or you have the wrong desk, or you have the wrong approach. 

Cause it really gets back to the simplicity of it. Now, not every mix is going to be, uh, you know, uh, uh, a purist type of mix. There's all sorts of things in all genres of music. Certain things require certain plugins and that kind of thing, but it. It really just, turn all of that shit off, and listen to the input, flat, and see what it sounds like. 

One at a time. And then, fix it, primarily at the source, or with a microphone, or with microphone placement, or just a different microphone. Get the source tone the way you want it first. Then put the right mic on it, and a good mic pre, you know, and you shouldn't need 90, uh, plugins. Unless you're doing some sort of enormous Broadway something or another, or like a mega show, you shouldn't need a Wave server. 

I'm sorry. You shouldn't. 

Sean Walker: no apologies. I mean, you're, when you're not on your Paragon, you're on what? SXL 

Wayne Pauley: I have an SXL as a backup that I do use occasionally in a tight situation. It's convenient. It's 

Sean Walker: physically tight. 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, physically tough. Yeah, I mean the desk weighs a couple hundred pounds like two guys can lift it or girls seen that too Unlit it and I can have it up and running in 15 minutes, you know, and the Paragon completely different, you know But 

Sean Walker: So it's not just on analog. It's even when you're on your SXL, you don't have a ton of plugins going and you're following the same 

Wayne Pauley: I don't use no it like with the SXL if it didn't come factory on the desk. I'm not using it 

Sean Walker: Copy that. 

Andy Leviss: Sure makes renting easier if you gotta rent one too. Sounds 

Wayne Pauley: I mean, you don't know how many times I've seen, uh, other guys and girls and other camps that have gotten on fly dates and the eye lock doesn't work or the license doesn't work and they've relied so heavily on these plugins for their mixes, you know, for either front of house or monitors and they get to some place in, you know, hypothetically Dolphin, Manitoba, Canada, and you're not going to get it, whatever you need, if you 

Andy Leviss: weirdly specific, but okay. 

Wayne Pauley: Well, I had a conversation with a friend of mine. They're playing up there next year. So they're just, it was on the front of my mind. I love those kids. I love that show. We've been, we've played a couple of times. It's great. But like, if you don't take it with you, you're not going to get it, you know? And if it doesn't work, well, tough shit doesn't work. 

You're not going to, you're not going to fix it out there. But, uh, anyway, I just, I've seen so many, so many engineers, not just young people, either. I've seen old people do it to bury themselves in their mixes and the, uh, reliance on a certain thing or a certain plugin or whatever. It's like, oh, I got to have this. I got to have that. And I'm like, no, you don't know. You don't, you know, one of the. 

One of the young people close to me recently was like, man, I'd really like to get a wave server. I was like, what are you, what is it you're actually trying to accomplish? Like, what is it you're trying to accomplish with this? It's like, well, the console I'm using, the, the, the, the reverbs, they just, they just don't sound all that great. 

I'm like, okay, so call the shop and ask them to get you a Bricasti two out, two in. You don't have to worry about latency. It's a reverb. Doesn't matter. For not that much money and it's gonna work every time you plug it in long as you don't break it 

Sean Walker: Totally dude. 

Wayne Pauley: You know what else it doesn't need you know, what else it doesn't need a wi fi connection 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Andy Leviss: an eye lock. 

Wayne Pauley: Doesn't need an i lock doesn't need a license 

Sean Walker: Totally. And. And you know, if you're at a, if you're touring with a big shop that like, you know, Claire or somebody that has good support on those kinds of things and a depth of inventory, you can call and get Bricasties. If you're at a smaller shop that doesn't have that, you can still find, you know, TC three thousands or four thousands. 

You can find SPX nineties or nine nineties or PCM ninety ones or PCM seventies, or, you know what I mean? Something that still sounds great today. That's a few hundred bucks to buy. Yes. 

Andy Leviss: if I'm remembering that the processing rack you had out at front of house at NAMM, you had my favorite digital delay of all time. The T the D two, right? D. 

Wayne Pauley: that's funny That's funny. That's 

Sean Walker: That has to be sarcasm. 

Wayne Pauley: that's the that's the best 400 you can buy right there 

Sean Walker: Right. Totally. 

Wayne Pauley: above my 2290 

Sean Walker: you go, 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, it 

Sean Walker: dude. I remember that I remember the first time that I was blessed enough to like, as I'm coming up with my career in the studio, have a four 80 and a pair of PCM 42s. And I was like, that's how they make those sounds. And it like, it just all blended and gushed together. 

Like it should, rather than just distinct bing, bing, bing delays right behind it. Cause I was, you know, using the cheap delays at one point. It's pretty stunning. What great effects can do to help like mush things, mush things together. Oh bro, bro. Wow. Ugh, 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, 

Sean Walker: many, too many records. 

Wayne Pauley: when I, uh, when I, when I, uh, started with Lee, um, we didn't have, we really didn't have anything. We had a little monitor rig that we didn't carry from the house at all as it kind of grew. You know, I never really carried a digital desk back in the old days. Uh, I say old days, it was 2011, 2012, 2013. 

Um, because there was just nothing that I felt strongly enough that I liked enough that would dictate actually paying for it. Like it, you know, you know, 10, 12, 15 years ago, it was like, yeah, you could have a SC 48 or you could have a profile, you could have a PM 5D or, you know, take your pick. Whatever it was at the time, there were two handfuls of desks that were available and I didn't really care for any of them more than any of the other ones. 

So we didn't even carry a front of house or a snake or any of that. I'm like, whatever you got, I'll just use it. It's fine. Um, but I found that original Paragon P 48, the old one, um, in a casino in Atlantic City. It's called the Resorts. A hotel and casino. And, uh, it's the only factory custom 48 input frame ever built. 

And they built it for Merv Griffin for the Andy Williams theater. And, uh, when we played there, we still weren't carrying. And when I got in the building, they had a Yamaha PM1D, one of the original ones as their house desk. And, uh, Bruce, the A1 there at the time, I said, man, I forgot how much I enjoyed this control surface, because I really did like the control surface. 

It sounds like, it sounds, but I liked working on it. He's like, man, if you like this, you should have seen what we had in here before. I said, really? What'd you have? He's like, we had an old Paragon P48, and I stopped and 

Sean Walker: Oh shit. 

Wayne Pauley: I said, I said, oh, hang on. I said, you mean a P40, right? Because all the factors are built to 40 inputs, not 48. 

He's like, no, we have a 48. It was the only factory one built. I said, wow. I said, whatever happened to it? He says, it's upstairs in the closet. 

Sean Walker: Where do I send the check? Where do I send the check? 

Wayne Pauley: Take my money. So about five months later, I sent a couple of friends in a, in a 15 passenger van and nothing but, uh, two captain's chairs and a mattress. And they went up there and brought it home. 

Sean Walker: Nice. 

Wayne Pauley: have it to this day. 

Sean Walker: Nice. 

Andy Leviss: So, 

Wayne Pauley: a, it was a thing. 

Andy Leviss: well, and am I remembering correctly that you have since gotten, like, a custom, like, mini Paragon made for some of the smaller shows you're doing? 

Wayne Pauley: So yes, uh, it, it wasn't custom built. Um, so the 

Andy Leviss: Or is it cut, custom cut down? 

Wayne Pauley: well, the original, the original console I had to retire. So, um, I found, uh, a P2, the one like I'm using on the big tour right now, I found a P2M in Colorado, my friend, uh, uh, Brett Dallin had one. that I ended up buying off of him, and I toured with that until COVID, and Lee, being the consummate workaholic, did not want to sit still, so he decided to build a studio in his, uh, at his place down in Franklin, and that's where that desk ended up. 

So then I had to go back to Bull at Clare, and I'm like, I need another P2M. He's like, let me see what I can do. So he wrangled one up out of the Claire inventory. And then, uh, about a year after that, uh, I was introduced to this awesome human being named Chris Mitchell, uh, who is in North Carolina. And, uh, we met through some mutual friends and he's one of those guys that has forgotten more than I'll ever know. 

Yeah. He's like a Rex Ray jr. He just got all that stuff in his brain. You know, he can, he can, Troubleshoot to the component level and just spout it out because like just send you some numbers like but a little bit I'm like, oh, of course, that's what it is 

Sean Walker: Dude. Totally. And a heck of a mix engineer too. 

Wayne Pauley: doing Sturgell Simpson right now incredible. 

Sean Walker: man. That show sounded great too. 

Wayne Pauley: yeah, but um Chris had an old P2M and I don't remember the the purpose for it But he decided he wanted to do a little pet project on it and he was gonna basically cut it in half And uh, I think originally he was going to take the the modules the channel strips and make them into like, uh, Uh outboard gear or something like that. 

Sean Walker: Like the ATI pro six, like just chanting rack mount channel strips. 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, exactly. 

Sean Walker: I got three of those that you can pry out of my cold dead hands. 

Wayne Pauley: There's a reason that shit costs so much money 

Sean Walker: Dude. Totally. Claire's got a bunch more for sale right now. And I'm like, ah, a thousand bucks a piece. It's good deal. 

Wayne Pauley: Anyway, so I ended up getting a hold of Chris and I said, Hey, man, are you, um, are you, what are you doing with that desk? He's like, well, we talk, we talk, we talk. I'm like, so I saw in an, uh, uh, the blurb somewhere that you talked about cutting, cutting it in half, essentially. He's like, yeah, I was, I was thinking about doing something like that. 

I said, dude, that would be perfect for this solo tour. We have coming up. It'll fit in a trailer, you know? And, uh, it's only half roughly, it's a little more than half the way. Cause it's the master section, still a full section, but he essentially took it completely apart and took from channels one to 24 and cut them off. 

Took the end cap off, took all the parts out, cut the frame, like with laser precision, I don't know how he did any of this stuff, but it's miraculous. So basically it's just a master section and 25 through 48, and it's about 650 pounds with all the stuff in it. And four guys can lift it and it's not that big a deal. 

You know, it fits in a lot tighter space, you know, for this, this theater tour that we're doing. So the, um, We call it the half desk because it's literally just 25 to 48. And I'm not really sure why he chose to chop the left hand side off, but it's interesting to me because, uh, the only other half desk in existence was one that, um, Larry Dropa had built at ATI when they were still a company to use for trade ships. 

And it was one through 24 with a master section. And it was never, it was never meant to go on the road, but, um, it ended up on the road anyway, it's been a true, uh, joy to have that thing out there. Cause most of the places, almost every place that we go on this solo tour. You know, it's just Lee and a bunch of guitars. 

There's no band, um, but it's still, you know, 20 inputs of all sorts of things from. stereo electric guitar and a piano and he's got the little kicker box pedal and all that kind of stuff. I mean, there's, there's a lot of inputs for a lot of variances in the show. It's like a storyteller's kind of show. If you remember the old VH1 

Sean Walker: fun. 

Andy Leviss: Speaking of dating ourselves. 

Wayne Pauley: right? 

No doubt. I'm not 

Sean Walker: I bet it's a fun show though. 

Wayne Pauley: It's great. And it's, it's, uh, it's almost as much storytelling as it is music. And, uh, man, the crowd just loves it. They love it. But like I said, most of the places, well, almost every place that we play, that big desk would never fit. 

Sean Walker: Right. Totally. 

Wayne Pauley: couldn't get it in there. So this has been a real blessing having this. 

So thanks again, Chris Mitchell. Love you, bud. 

Sean Walker: Yeah. Word. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, well, and God, he did a very, very early days episode talking a little bit about his little, his side hustle, you know, restoring and tweaking and, and rejiggering analog consoles. So we'll make sure we link to that in the show notes. 

Wayne Pauley: Yes. Love that guy. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, dude. Totally. Yeah. He and I also got our, our outboard gear nerd on when he was here at the gorge with Sturgill. That was great. He's got a cool rack too. Everybody likes a nice rack. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. That's awesome. So are you guys are out right now? You, you and 

Wayne Pauley: We are. Yeah, we, um, we did some rehearsals in January and basically all of February and March is a solo tour. 

Sean Walker: Dude, fun. 

Wayne Pauley: first week of April, we'll switch back over to the full band. Full band show and the big production. So I'm looking forward to 

Sean Walker: be awesome. Yeah, dude. 

Wayne Pauley: It's just, it's great. It's a, it's a great change of pace for us, for the crew. 

Cause it's not, um, it's not the whiz bang big show, you know, it's a, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Come on, brain. artistic. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, cool, man. 

Wayne Pauley: So it's, it's got just a lot more, everything has to be just right. Like there's no, there's no anything to hide behind. Like everything has to be just right. It was one of the biggest reasons I wanted to carry the PA getting back to the RCF. Thanks Tark. 

Sean Walker: Right, 

Wayne Pauley: Uh, the PA was, um, when you're doing a tour like this on PA du jour, man, it's, it's really hard to get the highest quality fidelity from day to day. When you're on a different rig every day. So being able to, um, have consistent rig is just, it's been really not just enlightening, but it's, it's, it's given us the ability to really go to the next level. 

And, and making it, you know, everything is critical as the decay times on the reverbs, you know, I mean the difference between 2. 4 and 2. 6, you know, in a lot of these places because it's so right there in your face, you can, you can hear, it's a huge difference. Like, you know, if you go into arena and you're trying to hear the difference between 2. 

4 seconds and 2. 6 seconds on a drum verb, you're like, eh, whatever. All I hear is the room anyway, 

Sean Walker: right 

Wayne Pauley: but you're in these theaters, man. And just, you know, get to cut the guitar going and he's doing finger pickings and it's like, I'm like, Oh, that's so good. Uh, 

Sean Walker: What rig are you carrying on this show? 

Wayne Pauley: there are GTX 10s, there's a, a, a dozen a side and, uh, the, um, uh, the double 19 subs. 

There's, uh, three of those a side. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, that's a banging rig. That's awesome. 

Wayne Pauley: Oh, it'll easily do just about any rock show. We just need it for the headroom, you know, cause the show goes from about, I don't know, believe it or not, somewhere around 85 DB, A, 

Sean Walker: it 

Wayne Pauley: up to almost, I don't know, right around a hundred. 

Sean Walker: it. 

Wayne Pauley: certain points, you know, when he's The crowd's getting boisterous and he's singing some of the upbeat songs and they're kind of going at it And it's you know, it's it it gets up there. 

It's it's uh, it's rowdy enough 

Sean Walker: Yeah, dude, totally. 

Andy Leviss: Taste, tasteful though. 

Wayne Pauley: Well, well we haven't anybody leave yet 

Sean Walker: Yeah, right. Totally. 

Wayne Pauley: but the day's not over 

Sean Walker: challenge accepted 

Wayne Pauley: accepted 

Sean Walker: That's rad, well, that's cool and you get to carry the the half size desk for that and A cool PA and you're fricking, you're ripping. 

Wayne Pauley: It's great, man. It's great. It's been great. We're also looking forward to getting back into the full band stuff. You know, there's nothing like, uh, nothing like 55 inputs of in your face. So, looking forward to bringing that out to the people in the summertime. 

Sean Walker: Absolutely, man. I remember listening through soundcheck and each input sounded awesome on its own. Uh, can you, like, expand for some of the, I'm gonna say kids listening, but you know, we got a lot of people of all different calibers. Some superstars like yourself and some people who is first rodeo it is and everything in between. 

How do you think about, you know, each of those inputs sounding their best? Is it, is it other than having a smoking band? Cause that band is absolutely smoking. 

Wayne Pauley: They are, um, 

Sean Walker: what can, what can the engineers be thinking about, you know, as they're coming up in their career to do, to, to maximize whatever's given to them? 

Wayne Pauley: honestly, the best thing you can do is, uh, is form a relationship with your band. Um, it's going up, shaking hands, how you doing? How's the family? What's going on? You start a rapport early on. With the people that you work with band and crew and the artist. And once you have a rapport where you understand them and they understand you, you can have conversations about, is the guitar too bright? 

Is it too dark? Is the, uh, too much. Punch in the bass, you know, the keys sound mid rangey. You have to be able to have that rapport to have those conversations. Once you have that, then you basically just listen. Does it sound good? Leave those channel strips flat and go back to the source first. Then, when you get it close, if you need a little EQ here and there, that's fine. 

But don't just start attacking the channel strip. No, no, no, no, no. Here's another little tidbit for you Um, i've seen this hundreds of times in the last 10 years if you are on a desk that you're dialing in or Whatever, even if it's one that you carry if you're going to more than four Different inputs on that desk for the same frequency. 

It's not the input. Go to your output side, go to that left, right. I've strapped on the digital world. I'll strap a graphic across the left, right. And use it as basically just a master, uh, to run all the matrix outs. So every matrix has an EQ on it individually. And then there's a left, right grandmaster with the left, right graphic on it, which is what I use basically to EQ. 

The band for the PA. So if 2k is killing you in the snare and the hat and all four times and two guitars and two keys, it's not the inputs. Go over and grab it on the output side. I promise you, you'll thank me later. 

Sean Walker: Totally, 

Wayne Pauley: The more, the less EQ you do on the console. The more, um, I don't want to say face coherent. That's not the right word, but the better, the whole thing will sound together when you sum it together. And that gets back to the, to the thing that you were saying earlier. The one thing about, excuse me, about those paragons, the reason that they sound as good as they do. 

Obviously the mic frees are great, but it's the summing buses. It's the way that thing sums up everything together in this beautiful just portrait painting no matter what you're putting into it It just comes out so damn good. You know, it's just Again, just back to the basics back to the basics man. It's it It's again, it sounds redundant and silly and dumb, but I'll promise you, promise you, it'll make a much bigger difference than 42 plugins. 

Sean Walker: It's not redundant, silly or dumb. It's, I mean, it's just echoing what we did a few weeks ago, which was just working on, you know, we had a whole episode on basically gain structure. To, you know, get it sorted, get your polarity right and get your gain structure sorted so it's not all over the board and it sounds like you're kind of on the same page. 

Like just get the basics done and you'll be astounded as to how close it is already to sounding great. 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, it doesn't take much at that point. It's really not that hard. I have heard some, some, uh, I'll call them younger, not young people, but younger engineers into the industry that have had some great mixes in the last, I'll say five or six years. So there is hope for, uh, for those under 40. 

Sean Walker: There you go. Not, not, not me though. I'm not, not us. We're not under 40. 

Wayne Pauley: No, 

Andy Leviss: we established out of the top of the 

Sean Walker: yeah, yeah. There's no hope for me. 

Wayne Pauley: You're a, you're watching friends. Reruns. 

Andy Leviss: my age nor my waist. 

Sean Walker: Right. 

Wayne Pauley: Oh, dear Lord. 

Sean Walker: Oh, my God. That's funny, dude. Oh, that's awesome. 

Wayne Pauley: I don't know what you're talking about. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, right? I'm in shape. Brown's in shape. 

Wayne Pauley: Round is the shape. 

Andy Leviss: Absolutely. Rolling, rolling, rolling. Ha 

Sean Walker: Oh, that's funny, dude. Dude, you do this super cool thing. Would you share your reverb trick with me? Or with the audience? You do this super cool thing with the vocal reverb where the vocal does not sound like it's got a bunch of reverb on it. It absolutely is not dry and lame. It sounds really cool, but it sounds very clear and not drowning in reverb. 

Will you share how you do that? Or am I asking too much right now? 

Wayne Pauley: I'll give you some basics. I don't want to, I don't want to give you the whole tricks of the trade, 

Sean Walker: All right. 

Wayne Pauley: the key to making the reverb a little more invisible. is to take away the things in the reverb that make it identifiable. Like if you listen to a verb and you hear something that's now, that's only if you want it to be invisible. If you don't, then just fly it up the flag and say here's salutes. But if you want it to be somewhat invisible, listen to the reverb return. High pass, low pass, little EQ here, little EQ there. You got to put it in a channel strip and treat it like an input. You know what I mean? It's got to have, you got to be able to EQ that thing and take those identifiable parts, the things that stick out the most and, and when you first run it up, you know, depending on if it's a short haul, long haul, warm, plate, you know, bathroom, tile room, Taj Mahal, whatever, whatever the thing is that makes it initially identifiable, take a little bit of that out, And use a little bit more of it overall, you know, well, let's say hypothetically, it's, it's a little hotter than the mid range. 

You can take about one K or one, two, something like that. Pull it down a little bit, open the Q to about an octave and push the fader up another DB or two, see if it's still sticking out or if something else is sticking out, you know, three K, five K, sometimes it's a hundred Hertz, sometimes it's two 50, you just have to listen to it, but that's the last thing in the chain. 

Like you have to make sure that the PA is tuned the way you want it first. Then you go back and make sure all your inputs sound the way you want them to sound. Then you EQ the reverb return. And the better, the more invisible you make it sound, the more of it you can use and not know it. 

Sean Walker: That's perfect. That's what I was. That's what I was asking. That's awesome. 

Wayne Pauley: Absolutely. 

Sean Walker: it, it was pretty great to like, when you muted it, I was like, Oh shit, that's awkward. Awkward. 

Andy Leviss: ha ha. Ha ha 

Sean Walker: But 

Wayne Pauley: of a sudden everything starts to sound like this. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, totally dude. Totally. I was like, is he garbling that microphone right now? But with it on, you weren't thinking like, Oh man, it's got a bunch of verb on it. 

You thought, Oh man, it just sounds great. You know, it was. It was pretty cool to sit and, uh, you know, to go back to my own workshop of nerdery and try to recreate that was kind of the same thing, right? High pass, low pass, make them, make them just not as make the verb itself. Not as obvious was pretty, was pretty fun, 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, the more invisible that you can make it sonically, the more of it you can use and not get in the way. 

Sean Walker: And it kind of helped create a little more space and separation and things without sounding disjointed and drowning reverb. 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, no, dude, nobody wants to hear it drowned in reverb. Nobody. 

Sean Walker: Not in many decades. 

Wayne Pauley: even, well, even, even back then. Cause that was some of those, some of that material at the NAMM show was, was back then. When, 

you know. Big drum verbs were a thing, man. 50 milliseconds of pre delay and reverse gates on the snare. You know, I'm like, Oh yeah, but no, that wasn't, that wasn't the case at the NAMM show. 

I didn't, I didn't do any of that. Although I wanted to, I wanted to. 

Andy Leviss: ha.   

Sean Walker: Well, what are you, what are you working on next that you're excited about? Back out with the same tour? 

Wayne Pauley: Well, yes. Uh, we got a new record coming out and there's a lot of new material. Got a new song that's going to radio, I think literally this week. It's, uh, today's actually March 4th for those of you listening in post or whatever. Uh, but I. Uh, just, you know, we worked a little bit on a new show design, but we're, we had to tweak it a good bit more. 

And we're, we're coming back out in the summer with a whole new look and a new show and some new material. It's just, we're just looking forward to, uh, doing what we do. 

Sean Walker: Dude. Awesome. I can't wait to come see another one this summer and see what the new, the new vibes all about, dude. Cause it's always a good time. 

Wayne Pauley: It's pretty cool. 

Sean Walker: It's pretty cool. 

Andy Leviss: look for when you, when you're headed up, uh, up northeast. Cause I've now I've only seen you do the NAMM thing. So I haven't seen you do like the real gig. So I gotta check it out. 

Sean Walker: Oh, bro. The real gigs banging. 

Wayne Pauley: it's a, it's a little more under control than that damn thing. Well, it 

was, awesome, but it was a little, it was a little seat of the pants, kind of, kind of 

Andy Leviss: that was actually going to be one of, one of my questions is like, what, like, cause it's a very different vibe coming and mixing a showcase at a thing like NAMM, like an industry. Inside thing like how do you approach that differently from like a normal gig or do you approach it differently? 

Wayne Pauley: Um, the, the big thing with like the difference between like our live show with Lee Bryce and like that NAMM thing is you have to understand the genre difference. Um, and it doesn't have to be a drastic difference, but you do have to understand it in an approach. So when you go see, uh, bands that are playing, you know, eighties rock and nineties rock, and sometimes even seventies rock. 

There's, there's a certain, there's certain things that you have to, some fundamentals you have to meet. Um, but you don't want to ever go too far, especially with a show like that, because you're, you're forging three or four different decades of genres into one, two hour show. And it still has to be relevant across the whole two hours. 

Like if you go too far, it's like, like I was saying with the big drum verb, you know, it's, you know, next thing you know, you're doing Bob O'Reilly, which is practically dry, you know, you have to, it has to be relevant. across the whole show. So the approach to the NAMM show was, um, you know, really it was just going back and listening to a lot of that stuff. 

So I can re familiarize myself with how it actually sounded, what was important in the mixes and what was, um, fluff. I don't want to say fluff, but you know what I mean. the, 

Sean Walker: I do. I know what you mean. 

Wayne Pauley: the, uh, the not everything can be the lead hook. 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Wayne Pauley: So 

Andy Leviss: Put that on a sticker. 

Sean Walker: Right. 

Wayne Pauley: not everything can be louder than everything else. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Sorry. Let me 

Wayne Pauley: Well, in this case, they, it could, uh, uh, dude, so when we got to the end of that nam show, one of the last songs they did, uh, was Ace of Spades. And I looked over at, at, at Michael, who was looking at me and I said, all right, dude. Keep your eye on the meter. Cause he'd already had his earplugs in at that point. 

That's fine. You know, cause this is Motorhead and these are my people. These are my people. 

Sean Walker: Right. 

Wayne Pauley: And I will tell you what 

it, I will tell you what it, 

Andy Leviss: demo. You got to show what the speaker can fucking do 

Wayne Pauley: Oh, and we did. I won't tell you what the number is, but it was, it was well into three digits 

Sean Walker: It was, it was number ish. It was an,  

Wayne Pauley: and it was, it was, it was, yeah, I only wanted it to be that loud for three minutes. 

Sean Walker: right?  

Wayne Pauley: That was enough. That was enough. That was enough. But, uh, that was the only show I've ever, not even worked on, but I've ever seen in my life where the, the set list literally ranged from Motorhead to Pavarotti. 

Sean Walker: Dude. How cool. 

Wayne Pauley: It was incredible. 

Sean Walker: What a fun. What a fun challenge to mix, dude. From my, from Pavarotti to Motorhead is a wildly different strategy. You know what I mean? What a cool thing to do, man. You gotta be stoked. 

Wayne Pauley: blessed. Very blessed. Dude, I'm still on cloud nine from it. Just talking about it. I said, dude, I took the tape off of the desk where I basically put a piece of white gaff down to, to, uh, do the, uh, channel inputs. Because, you know, I just use a Sharpie, just K, K, S, the timeline, 

you know. I kept that whole thing. 

I stripped it off the desk before I sent it back to Sean. 

Sean Walker: That's awesome, dude. 

Wayne Pauley: And it is full. I just can't figure out where to put it. Well, 

Sean Walker: you're bragging. 

Andy Leviss: I know so but like aside from the stylistic things like with it being particularly a manufactured demo Is there any difference in how you approach that or is it just a show's a show and i'm gonna make it sound Sound best I can What, 

Wayne Pauley: I've had a relationship with these guys at RCF for, um, you know, a little while, not decades, but for a little while, and they kind of know, you know, my approach to a normal show. So we, you know, we talked about it briefly, but I mean, it wasn't really meant to be anything other than what it was. The fact that the, the, um, the material. 

Uh, varied so greatly it, it kind of spoke for itself, you know, didn't really have to try very hard to, to, uh, uh, overpronounce what the PA was capable of. Also, I do want to give a shout out to my good friend Tim Moore and all the guys at Sennheiser for letting me take bags of microphones out there to do this with. 

Uh, literally, 

Andy Leviss: what was the final input count? 

Wayne Pauley: oh god, uh, hang on. 

Andy Leviss: Because I know it didn't all fit directly in your desk. Like there 

Wayne Pauley: No, there was, there was a side, there was a side, uh, a side desk doing basically, um, the, the orchestra came to me in stems, the choir was a stem, uh, the steel drums the steel drums 

Andy Leviss: Steel drums? Plural? 

Wayne Pauley: Yeah, did we did we not talk about this there was 10 

sets of  

Andy Leviss: about, we, I was doing the showbiz thing, because we talked about it before we went on air. 

Wayne Pauley: Okay, so if we didn't uh, i'll recap so, uh on a 40 by 40 stage There was one drum kit two bass rigs two pairs of stereo keys rigs The B3, five guitar rigs, uh, 30 person orchestra, uh, an 80 member choir, which was 30 adults and 50 kids and 10 sets of steel drums. 

Sean Walker: Holy crap, bro. 

Wayne Pauley: So 

Andy Leviss: And of course now I'm going inside myself, I'm like, wait, did we talk about it on air? So if you heard this twice, folks, I apologize. That's on me. 

Wayne Pauley: good job, Andy. 

Sean Walker: Dude, that's, 

Andy Leviss: And if not, you're welcome. 

Sean Walker: that's a lot of people on a small stage. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. 

Wayne Pauley: Uh, yeah, just getting, just wrangling them on and off the deck was the chore of two people. I don't know how many backstage wranglers they were, but there were two people just getting them on and off the deck. So it was, uh, it was something, man, it was something. 

Sean Walker: Dude, 

Wayne Pauley: Uh, anyway, so I did, I'd want to back to real quick to the, to my friends at Sennheiser, uh, I've used their mics for good Lord, 25 years now, and, uh, they've been great to me and us and all of our, uh, superfluous around us, but, uh, the biggest thing was the new compact four 21s, man. 

I used them on the 

Andy Leviss: cute. 

Wayne Pauley: the dudes, they sounded, well, if you were there, you heard it. It was, it was huge, huge. They do not sound like a small microphone,  

Sean Walker: That's  

Wayne Pauley: but they, the, the way that those mounts work now, it's basically a mini 421 on like a 904 clip. 

Sean Walker: Oh my God. That's so much better 

Wayne Pauley: all right. 

Sean Walker: because the old 421 clips 

Andy Leviss: manufacturers out of business. 

Wayne Pauley: not going to fall off. 

Sean Walker: I love that. 

Wayne Pauley: But no, but they sounded. Uh, well, that was one of the big compliments of the whole night was, man, his drum sounds so good. I'm like, well, it's a good sounding kit, first of all. And, uh, it's a good sounding microphone and I didn't do a whole lot to it. Not really. I turned it up a good bit, but you know, 

Sean Walker: Totally. Totally. 

Wayne Pauley: But you  

Sean Walker: dude.  

Wayne Pauley: it was, uh, it was something, it was something. 

Sean Walker: Yep. That was super fun. Well, that seems like a good place to uh, wrap up the hour here and, and thank RCF for letting us all come rock at NAMM and 

Wayne Pauley: Absolutely. 

Sean Walker: and for making some awesome speakers that everybody can afford to go make some money with. Alan and Heath for, you know, making DSPs and consoles that we can, we can go get it on Wayne. 

Thank you so much for your time today and hanging out, buddy. It's always a pleasure to see you and tell bad jokes and war stories as it were. 

Wayne Pauley: Thank you  

Andy Leviss: glad we finally made this happen. 

Sean Walker: yeah, dude. 

Wayne Pauley: Uh, no, I appreciate you guys very much. The opportunity and, uh, just being able to speak out a little bit, you know, hang. It's a good hang, man. I love hanging with you guys. 

Sean Walker: Totally. Totally.  

Well,  

Wayne Pauley: all right in my book. I don't care what they say about you. 

Sean Walker: yeah, totally. Well, that's the pod y'all. We'll see you next week. 

Wayne Pauley: Christmas. 

Andy Leviss: Please stay on the line. Your podcast is very important to us and we'll be with you as soon as we can. 

Wayne Pauley: Fuckin window salesman! God bless America!

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green