289. Sound Designer Nat Houle On Spatial Audio

“Spatial” and “immersive” audio are buzzwords that we seem unable to escape in today’s world of live sound, but what do they actually mean and how do we use them — if we even should at all? Theatre sound designer Nat Houle joins the show in Episode 289 to provide a “manufacturer-agnostic” take on the topic, benefits and limitations, and much more. This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

Houle, a 2025 USITT Rising Star winner for sound design, works as a designer and associate across the U.S. Last year, she launched a website, NMH Spatial, aimed at introducing folks to the benefits of spatial audio, in addition to shedding light on a number of common myths and misconceptions about the technology and how it can enable and impact your art.

Episode Links:
Nat Houle Website
NMH Spatial
Nat’s Blog On SoundGirls.org
Q&A: Natalie “Nat” Margaret Houle, 2025 USITT Rising Star Winner
Theatrical Sound Designers and Composers Association (TSDCA)
Pat MacKay Scholarships For Diversity In Design
USITT
Episode 289 Transcript

Spatial Resources:
TiMax
L-Acoustics L-ISA
Meyer Sound Spacemap Go
d&b audiotechnik Soundscape
FLUX:: SPAT

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Transcript

Episode 289 - Nat Houle on Spatial Audio

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, whose new dLive RackUltra FX upgrade levels up your console with 8 next-generation FX racks – putting powerful tools like vocal tuning, harmonizing, and amp simulation right at your fingertips. Learn more at allen-heath.com

RCF and TT+ AUDIO.... Delivering premium audio solutions designed for tour sound and music professionals for over 75 years. Visit RCF at RCF-USA.com for the latest news and product information.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green 

Andy Leviss: Hey, welcome to another episode of Signal to Noise. I'm your host, Andy Leviss, and with me, the L to my -ISA Mr. Sean Walker. What's up, Sean? 

Sean Walker: What's up, buddy? 

Andy Leviss: And not, not my best work, but it's what I had in front of me right now. 

Sean Walker: it's better. It's better than nothing. It's better than the opening I had, which was, "'sup, buddy?". 

Andy Leviss: Uh, 

Sean Walker: are you up to this week, dude? 

Andy Leviss: Uh, mostly just, just playing dad this week. I'm, I'm on a gig next week doing some, some RF and, and reddle stuff, but, uh, this week just running errands at home and bouncing the baby on one hand. 

Sean Walker: nice. Sometimes that is exactly what the doctor ordered, dude. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, no, it's, it's been, it's, it's been an adventure full week, but all in good ways. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, totally, totally. 

Andy Leviss: yeah. And then, um, I, hopefully folks are still listening after our, our little diversion into behind the scenes land with just me last week, a little bit of a curve ball for folks last week, but I, I think some folks enjoyed it. 

Hope folks got something useful out of that. 

Sean Walker: I got a nap. Does that count? 

Andy Leviss: I mean, a lot of people listening might have gotten on naps too. That's by concern. 

Sean Walker: Oh, funny. I'm just giving you a hard time buddy. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. No, uh, yeah. No, that was a thing we, like folks had kind of, some folks had asked for that for a while and, uh, and you had a, you had a slam week, so I was like, it seems a good opportunity to do that, so let's do it. 

Sean Walker: Totally, dude. I'm in the middle of wrapping up the new Aaron Crawford record, and also we've got like 24 breakouts tomorrow. So we're just scrambled around to get every little mixer in powered speaker that exists in Seattle to go do that. And last night at 9:00 PM the client's like, Hey man, I need to add like 14 more speakers in, in five more rooms. 

And I was like, sweet, no problem. Let me sort that out by tomorrow morning. So, you know, it's been a, it's been a whole week. It's been a whole week. 

Andy Leviss: I was gonna say, usually you're just having a whole day, so having a whole week is like, whew. 

Sean Walker: it's been a whole week, but it's great. It's great. It's a great week. It's just, you know, it's just one of those like clients be doing client stuff and that's how they do and that's cool, you 

Andy Leviss: All good. All good. Make that money though. Uh, so this is, this is also an episode we've been trying to do for a while. 'cause we, we've been playing scheduling games forever with this, this friend and guest. And we literally had a, had a date set up to do it. And then of course it was cold and flu season and some sort of sickness intervened and we had to bounce it along to the spring. 

So now before allergy season gets us, here we are. Uh, so we have, we have with us today, uh, Nat Houl, who is, uh, somebody I've known slash known of for a long time through the theater community. And, uh, who a among many other things is, I would say one of the, if, if I need an agnostic overview of immersive audio, particularly as it goes to 

Sean Walker: is how you describe her. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Is, is Nat is the person I call. 'cause uh, is Nat has a, a website, uh, n nmhspatial.com. That's like a deep dive into spatialized theatrical experiences. I'm not gonna try and describe it. I'll let Nat kinda 

Sean Walker: Damn it. 

Andy Leviss: explain it when, when we get there. Um, but before we 

Sean Walker: I was on Bad motherfucker.com. Is that not her website? I thought that was her. 

Andy Leviss: that's a different thing, Sean. 

Sean Walker: Oh, sorry. Wrong website again, guys. This this googly thing is, this googly thing is powerful, y'all. You gotta, you gotta watch out when you start hitting the googly. 

Andy Leviss: Um, that, that all said, I have an important question to ask first. 'cause did I just learn that you and another longtime friend of the podcast, David William, are former, like high school nemesis? 

Nat Houle: Oh my gosh, yes. I went to high school with David. Um, so David was one of the sort of like straight A students, like in every music ensemble, people that I felt like I was in really tight competition with, but also 

Andy Leviss: at home. This is my surprised face. 

Nat Houle: And, um, but the funny thing was that we, um, sort of got into audio around the same time, but in completely different ways. 

Um, his approach was a lot more on, on the math physics side, and my approach was, um, just, just came from this theater background and, and being around it, um, so much. And so when you get us both into a room, we have, like he says, uh, overlapping interest, but, but like very little to talk about, very little overlap, uh, of, of the language we can use with each other. 

Um, so it's, it's very interesting, but it's been wonderful, uh, getting to know him again and, uh, spending time with him and Hannah. Uh, yeah. 

Sean Walker: Everybody can talk about tacos and coffee and beer. It, it works for everybody. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, and, and by the end of the day, we're all just spinning out random model numbers at each other right away and seeing if we can meet the lighting. People think we know what we're talking about, so 

Nat Houle: yeah. But, but it's just, it's fascinating to now know, uh, people I can, people like David who are, you know, of my generation, um, in some cases the same exact age and are coming up in this same way parallel and that we all have like these different specialties. And it's really wonderful to have those people in your generation that challenge you because sometimes David will be talking about something and he'll be like, I have no idea what you're saying. 

I appreciate the knowledge. But, uh, and, and same with Hannah. And, and I'm sure if I went into certain things with theater, it would be just a completely different world, right? It's like, you can say quiet time to a theater person, and we know what you're talking about. But for some other spaces, that's just not a thing. 

Sean Walker: That sounds like I got put in the corner with the dunce cap and my nose facing the corner. Or is that just me? 

Andy Leviss: that's just you when an episode goes really off the rails. 

Sean Walker: Shit, I. every time 

Andy Leviss: I, I mean the rails are a very loose thing around these parts these days. 

Sean Walker: are you saying there're more guidelines than actual rules? 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. Yeah. We'll go with that. Um, something about the exception that proves the rules or something, I 

Sean Walker: Oh God. Oh God. 

Andy Leviss: Um, so now why don't, do you want to give us a, a little more of that background of like, I know you said you got into sound through the theater end and like how that is and, and what, what do you do? 

Nat Houle: Yeah, so I, um, I was lucky that I was surrounded by music from a young age. So my mom and my dad actually met, um, when she was like singing on a worship team, and my dad was doing sound for it. Um, he just, he just recently retired from mixing, but he was a church down person for like, almost 40 years. Um, so that has always been a part of my life, like watching the rehearsals, um, you know, sneaking in through the back to, to watch my dad work. 

Um, so I, I grew up with that and in general in a pretty musical family. And I was lucky enough to go to a school district where, like in kindergarten we were listening to classical music and being asked to describe what we, what we heard, and, and use adjectives, figure out how to characterize rhythm, tempo, all of that. 

Um, and. 

Andy Leviss: a school like that for my kiddo. 

Nat Houle: Uh, and so, yeah, uh, Arlington is the district I went to. It was, uh, I mean, it's, it's still, you know, certainly one of the best in the state and for that. And so, um, so I kind of found my way through playing clarinet to the pit orchestra by, by the time I got to middle school and in the pit orchestra, I was not like enjoying myself. 

I, I thought that the music was too hard. I was very frustrated by that. These middle schoolers like couldn't project when they were singing, and I just felt the need to like, you know, reel it all in. And I remember at a certain point, like a very, just a rehearsal that was not going well because the music was, was too difficult for us. 

Um, just kinda looking back at the sound booth and thinking like, that's where I should be, that's where I belong, that's what I'm familiar with. Um, and 

Sean Walker: that was easier. 

Nat Houle: no, no, it, it's just what I wanted to do because that, like, I had always been watching things from the back, um, and, and watching, you know, my dad, so. So I kind of, I, I knew a few folks over there. 

They were all boys. And I eventually got in, uh, to that sort of social circle and started being a part of the tech crew after that show. Um, and every Sunday I would work with my dad and, and learn what a lavalier was or, um, I would learn something new about, uh, the video system or press record on the recorder, uh, or copy CDs for the worship team. 

And so that, you know, was kind of where I sat towards the end of middle school. And then high school, I got the chance to, uh, have this amazing auditorium, uh, that me and David both like used to the best of our ability, uh, at that time. And, and also with a huge music program. We had so many different opportunities. 

Um, so, uh, that was when I first started getting into theater sound. We had a M seven there. And, um, I. W was kind of thrown into a few different situations where I just happened to be the person with the dad who knew what was going on. And so I would basically go after school every day, work with my dad. 

We would, he would talk me through like setting delay on, on the monitors or what, what have you. Like we would just work through everything together, uh, in preparation for different shows. So that became a practice, but I was still doing music and at a certain point I had to decide I'm going to, you know, be doing the fall musical as opposed to doing marching band. 

So, uh, that, that switch happened. But music like continued to be very important to me. Um, and so during high school, going back to that competition thing, there were people like David who were able to, um, you know, connect to this like, academic success. And I knew that I wanted to do audio and I was doing like community theater all over the place. 

Um. Any chance that I could, sometimes skipping classes, like I remember skipping class to go to a ES, uh, uh, and I, 

Andy Leviss: thing I've heard in a while. Love it. 

Nat Houle: and, um, and I, I was just like, I, I don't wanna go to school for this. I just wanna, you know, I don't think that I need to go to school for this. I, I see what my dad does. I feel like I could do that, you know, out in the field with what I know now. And I was very stubborn about it. And the reason, the reason why I mentioned this is because this is, I see my past as a huge journey of like hate and love with education. 

And by the time that I had, uh, finished up high school, I really was against what higher education had had sort of shown me of itself. Um, and I, I wanted to just completely divorce myself from it. So I cut all my hair off and, uh, I, my first job out of high school was at a mastering studio. Um, and that's, I learned how to do tape there, which was great. 

Not a lot of people by age have gotten to work with tape. Um, and I worked there for a few months and eventually I realized like, I can't just sit in a dark room all day. And I, I was doing a lot of 

Andy Leviss: you went into theater. 

Nat Houle: Well, but I was in a very small space. This was like, you know, a closet basically. Um, but I was doing like production assistant type of work. 

So I would be writing the final fades on files, sending the files to, uh, um, the different artists, uh, and doing a lot of communication stuff, um, archiving, et cetera. And that, that just, I knew that that wasn't right and I, I, for me, and I had to figure out how to pivot. So I just kind of went out as a freelancer doing as many different, uh, taking as many different opportunities to observe people as possible. 

So I would get in contact with Broadway designers, uh, with the A ones, and I would find a way to see the show for free and sit next to the mixer and see what technology that they were using. Um, and then I continued doing a lot of community theater. There were a few people I met in community theater who did television. 

Um. So I think in 2016 I started doing television on like the RFPL team for Good Morning America, and that became like the summer gig. So it's, it would be every Thursday and Friday, Thursday we would do the setup and then Friday in, in Central Park, uh, for those, uh, summer concert series. And then Friday would be like a 2:00 AM to 11:00 AM shift doing the show. 

So I did that every summer for I think four years. Um, and eventually with the whole community theater scene and trying out different places, seeing what worked, um, working over hire as many places as I could. Eventually I ended up at the Culinary Institute in Poughkeepsie. Um. And that's where I met Sonny, who would become my, my future professor. 

Uh, and so I didn't really think about, uh, education the same way after meeting her and going to one of her classes at, at New Paul, it's like forever. My idea about audio education was changed. Um, and if, I mean, sunny is amazing. Um, she teaches now at SUNY Purchase, uh, and she was like the task that she had in front of her of dealing with me at that time and of helping to replace my like broadcast stage hand, um, sometimes confused knowledge about certain things. 

Uh. I mean it, that was kind of huge. Like she had to really un unwork some things that I had begun to believe about audio, um, and straighten it out into a theater sort of point of view. Um, because I had a lot of different mentors at the time, um, and had a lot of different sources of information. And so I just had all this like, uh, uh, these different layers of what I thought was true and what was something I had read in a book and somebody, what somebody had told me, et cetera. And it's hard to sometimes organize the knowledge that you get when you're working on the gig and it's three in the morning and somebody is telling you about rf, you know, so. 

So anyway, so I, uh, got to spend four years with her at New Paltz, and I really worked, uh, during that time on figuring out what does the sound image mean. Um, there were a few undergraduate projects that I got to do. One was about OSC with lighting and syncing up cues and different things to consider with that. 

One was about system tuning, which I did during the pandemic, um, because the theater was empty. Um, so we basically did an install with a ton of speakers and I played all day with the speaker angles and I played all day with placement. Uh, and then, then that takes me to the Pat Mackay Scholarship, which she encouraged me to, to do. 

And that just completely changed everything again. So, uh, so Sunny was really instrumental in, um, in me, like changing my idea about education and uh, also getting me into composition. So that is where I kind of began that journey too. 

Andy Leviss: So like real quick. Quick for the folks outside the theater world or even in the theater world, don't know, like what is the scholarship? 

Nat Houle: So Pat mackay, um, is a, so the full name is, uh, pat mackay di Diversity and Design Scholarship. And so the idea with that is, uh, it, it's not just sound, but it, there's also, um, I think costume scenic. I'm not, I'm not sure the other departments, but it's, it's not exclusively sound. So there's a set amount of money and depending on how many people win it, you know, it's distributed differently. 

But the goal is to get people like me, women. People of color, anybody who would be, you know, not seen in the room the same way as when Andy walks in the room, you know, or not trusted the same way anybody who, um, would automatically be at a systemic disadvantage to, to help them in their, um, you know, supporting themselves through their academic career. 

Um, and so that was big, not just because of the monetary help, but because I got to, um, you know, get an interview. I got to, uh, you know, be better known in like the T-S-D-C-I-T-T-S-D-C-A realm, um, which was really big, especially during the pandemic because we were all at home. Like, I, I don't know how you felt Andy, if, if you experienced this too, but during the pandemic with T-S-D-C-A, we had, especially at the annual meeting, we had so many opportunities to sit down on Zooms and to, um, be meeting each other and, and learning about each other's work in a completely different. 

Way than, than before. Like that, that was our community leaning on each other. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, like I certainly got more, I think, 'cause I think I joined before the pandemic. But yeah, I definitely felt a lot more involved. Like that was one of the silver linings that came out of the pandemic for sure. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. Um, and that was, um, I had always been like pretty active on social media, like as, as a young person, but I, that like, kind of took it to the next level of like, oh, other people know me now, um, and, and know who I am and have a way of learning about me and, and my story and where I come from, uh, than, than they did before. 

So that, um, and I think that that's an important thing to say too, is like, you know, that type of exposure is sort of that, that new exposure. And I think I'll, I'll talk about it maybe a little bit later with the website, but. Um, that, that was another huge shift. So, um, so then I, I became more aware of T-S-D-C-A and felt like, oh, I can really apply to things and get resources to do the things that I, I want to do. 

Um, so by the time I, uh, left new pa it's like we went through the pandemic. We, uh, there was a virtual theater group that I helped to put together where we would like produce, work together on Zoom, um, and designers could keep designing in the same way they would for their classes. Um, uh, and that was great, but, but by the time that I ended, uh, undergrad, I felt like I just needed more practice. 

And there were only so many, so many manufacturers that I was exposed to at New Paltz. Uh, because like, I mean, I've gone to two different state schools and, and you don't always have the best, the newest gear. Um. And so I, I wanted to expand and, uh, that, uh, led me to UCII, I applied to a few different grad schools and that, uh, ended up being the right choice. 

So I took everything up, uh, from my parents' house in Poughkeepsie and drove my Forester, uh, to California, and I've been here since. Um, and so I just graduated, uh, last year from UCI, uh, getting my, my MFA there. 

Andy Leviss: So that's with, uh, with my old friend, uh, Mr. Olivieri. 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. Yep. 

Andy Leviss: Cool, cool. That's, he is also on the list of folks. We've been playing schedule games for like a year to get on the podcast, so I gotta, I gotta reach out to him soon. 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, he's a great person to talk to. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, so at at UCI, um, I had, I had never really been exposed to spatial audio before. I think that Sonny, uh, you know, had, had mentioned L-ISA before, but I, but I. It was totally disconnected from what it was. Um, and so at UCI, my first exposure was in like the first quarter, um, because we do a week or two on Dmitri and, um, we used a space map and so that was first exposure to like TRIC sets. 

Uh, and then I think that quarter I also did a project with somebody in Space Map Go. Um, but something like it, it was not clear to me like, this is the thing I really wanna dive into and do. Um, and then we went on a field trip to El Acoustics Westlake, and that was like another huge pivot. Uh, so we were doing a project where we would design a sequence, um, based on a play that we were studying in L-ISA and prepare it, and then we would hear it in the studio. 

So we would pre prepare it, narly, and then go and, and hear what it was like, and then understand how that translates. Uh, so I went and when I. Heard it for real in loudspeakers. I was like, this is my thing. And instantly I went to Vinny, uh, after this I was like, I need this for my next show. Uh, and then that happened. 

And then it just started this whole, uh, avalanche of exploring spatial audio and of really loving it and of like, you know, never wanting to, uh, leave, leave the cocoon of that, that topic. Um, once I, once I had it, I just knew that this is the thing I need to stick with. Uh, so there was a number of shows that I got to do after that, um, that I was using soundscape or Space Map go, uh, or L-ISA and, uh, ex exploring what all this meant now, all that, those first experiences with spatial audio kind of overlapped with what would happen when I would go back to New York, uh, during the holiday breaks. 

Uh, so the first year that I was in school. Um, I was still, so after Good Morning America, I had gotten involved in New Year's Rockin' Eve, uh, also doing, uh, working with Jet Wave doing, um, comms work. So, so like setting up antennas and Times Square, running around, running cable, um, uh, testing, rf testing ranges, setting up on various rooftops, all of that. 

Uh, and so that was, um, that was the first year that I was in grad school. I went back and actually got to do that gig again the second year that I came back to New York. Um, so right, I've, I've gone to Westlake, I've done a little bit of work in spatial audio, like I know I'm interested in it. Um, the second time I was working on an off-Broadway load-in and, uh, with my friend Elizabeth Weidner and, uh, it became clear while I was there, I just had this very vivid understanding of like, this is not the place to experiment. 

With spatial audio and like by this I mean Broadway and I realized what I had been told before by multiple people, but didn't really fully believe, um, which was that at, at the end of the day, from a system design perspective, it shows have been the same for a long time. Like, yes, different processors, yes. 

Maybe, uh, different approaches within that mono stereo idea. But largely if you, if you look at five different Broadway designs, they're overall similar. I mean, Andy, like, would you, would you agree to a certain extent. 

Andy Leviss: It depends who's asking and who's listening, but probably yes, 

Nat Houle: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and 

Andy Leviss: for you, you know who you are. 

Nat Houle: and it's hard to, I mean, it's hard to say that because, because like that, that seems to take away the designer's, um, uh, you know, individuality. But, but really if you lay over different systems, you know, not, you know, not even thinking about how they're mixed or what the balances are. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, there's, there's still lots of artistic past that, like technical, structural, but at the base, the, the structural technical system is gonna be pretty similar. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. And it's a lot of the same equipment and a lot of the same conventions. Um, so like, I I say that with that like little asterisk of like, this is, that's not a personal statement, it's just, you know, it, it's been like this in, within this certain range of possibilities for, for a long time with a few outliers. 

Um, and, and that like kind of frustrated me and got me a little upset. And so I remember coming from, uh, after, after my second trip back to New York, I remember coming back and saying like, Vinny, like I really want to help be a part of changing this. And, uh, getting people to feel encouraged to get out of their current, like creative boundaries and to challenge what they thought they knew about system design. 

And that would become like six months later, the idea for doing, doing a thesis on it. But I, I just knew I had to say something, uh, to be like, Hey, we've done, we've done this for a while. Can we challenge ourselves and feel emboldened enough to go beyond it? And, okay, if that involves discomfort and new technology and, and what have you, how do we keep going until we practiced it enough that we do feel comfortable bringing it onto a professional show? 

What, like, that's a whole psychological, philosophical thing. And the emotional part of that is what I'm trying to help people like navigate, because the technical part is, uh, you know, the manufacturers, right? Like, don't go to me to learn everything about soundscape, but there are certain things that I know about having used it and in comparison with other spatial audio modalities, but. 

The really important part, the gap that I can fill is that gap between manufacturer and user, uh, which is context, like agnostic context for whatever product you're looking at. If you're looking at soundscape, izea, space map, go. Um, so that, like, I saw that gap, I saw that problem and I wanted to, to do something about that. 

So first my idea was just doing a paper on it. Uh, and that's not what I'm trained to do. I'm not trained to write 30 page papers. Uh, but I have made a portfolio before and so it is totally to Vinny's credit that we, uh, ended up making it into a website. Um, so we spent, uh, really like a year, uh, doing this. 

So he, he was my thesis advisor, so he was the person that I continually met, uh, to, to talk about it and to, to work on it and to talk about my plans for it and my, my dreams for it. So that's, that's kind of how it, we got to the point of. Uh, you know, having an idea like NMH spatial. 

Andy Leviss: So, and for the folks who haven't visited yet, aside from just hit pause right now, go to nmhspatial.com and check it out. Uh, do you wanna give folks just like the, a slightly deeper pitch on like, what, what they'll find there? 

Nat Houle: Yeah. So, um, so the, the homepage of it is sort of like what the equivalent of an abstract would be for a long paper. Uh, so like in bold, the first things you'll see are, are stereo delivery in the theater is a myth. Spatial audio is here to stay, so let's talk about it. Um, so it's, it, this whole website talks directly to the sound designer, theatrical sound designers, and. 

Says, let's go on a journey from literally looking at the script for the first time to, um, thinking about money, to thinking about your workflow during tech, um, throughout your whole theatrical process. Um, and let's kind of walk through it together, what your rationale would be for using spatial audio. Um, what types of techniques you can use for, uh, can, can use for it, uh, with regards to storytelling and dramaturgy, uh, and how you can advocate for it to make sure that you are successful in trying to implement it. 

So, um, the, the other kind of bold part of this is what does object based sound mean to you in your work, and why should it mean any more than it does now? So it is overall a persuasive website. Um, but it also, it it's speaking to you as a sound designer and saying, Hey, you know, with a hand on your shoulder, uh. 

Uh, can you think about this a little bit differently? Are you willing to think about it a little bit differently? Um, and if you are awesome, this is, this is your, like, home base. This is your starting point. And then from there you can approach those different technologies. So I, I hope that summarizes it. 

All right. Oh, poor Andy. 

Andy Leviss: Yeah. that's great. Um, now I'm, I'm just ju juggling toddler and making sure he is happy, which he is. He is the happiest little dude. Um, yeah, and I, you know, we've like thrown terminology around and I know I mentioned before we started recording that I've even in like presentations that Sean and I got Dr. 

Got drafted into at NAMM been a little loosey goosey with terminology on 

Sean Walker: told 

Andy Leviss: Yeah, we, we were voluntold to participate in, I. No, we, uh, we had a blast of that, but like, there's so object based mixing, spatial audio, immersive audio, or all terms that sort of, I think have a tendency to sloppily get used 

Sean Walker: Yo man, can we put surround sound in that motherfucker too? Dog? Come on, gimme the 5.7 0.91 Atmos dog. 

Andy Leviss: so yeah. So I don't like, Nat, do you wanna like, maybe give us a little bit of a, like what, what the proper terms are for things and like what the, where those things overlap or are different? I mean, I feel like immersive is kind of like the big buzzwordy thing that doesn't really mean a lot. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. Yeah, 

Andy Leviss: then we, I. 

Nat Houle: Yeah, yeah. I think of immersive as a little bit of a cop out. Um, be, but the, the reality is that we have to use it because we don't have another world word like it, because none of us have pulled out of thesaurus and thought about it. And, uh, so immersive to me is, is this buzz buzzword that somehow implies if, if I'm reading, you know, an ad, uh, or some sort of marketing, uh, or a social media post, what have you, for a spatial audio solution. 

And I read immersive. That doesn't tell me anything except a feeling. It is just saying this subjective feeling of being either surrounded or somehow participating in, or that, uh, it is reaching toward me, uh, pulling me in in some way that there's some emotional component that is, um, uh, you know, at the forefront of my experience of, of a, uh, sound delivery. 

Uh, so it. It. That's one thing. So I just did A-U-S-I-T-T session with Brad Ridge about this, and, uh, one thing we asked the audience was like, what did you think that this was about? Because the title had immersive in it. And what we tried to explain was that that doesn't tell you anything. Like you had a preconception in your mind of what that meant and you went because of the emotional connection that you have to that word. 

Um, and then, you know, object based and spatial can kind of be combined. But, um, so with, with object based, right? As opposed to with channel based, we're moving, uh, one object usually in some sort of, you know, user interface that we can see, interact with. If it's a, you know, it could be an iPad, a screen, but there is some sort of interaction that is happening where I am choosing where this object, where this input lives, uh, in, in space. 

And that could be literal or it could be abstract. Um, so an abstract example would be like space milk. Um, or a very literal one would generally be something like soundscape, uh, where it's very important that the, uh, that the program that you're using knows where quote unquote the speakers are, uh, in real space and represents it that way. 

Um, so at the end of the day, you're really just dragging, usually circles in space, uh, when it's object based audio, which is very different from our usual, uh, very different from our usual channel based workflow with our consoles and our mixed buses and our stereo left right, or our vox left right bus, or our band left right bus. 

Um, completely different way to process audio, completely different way to experience audio. And it comes, the, the part that I think people miss is that it comes with a totally different way of designing the system. Um, it, it. Uh, you know, it can work okay with, uh, you know, distributed MonoSystems and, uh, you know, discrete channel outputs. 

But it's, it's not gonna be the same as designing a system with a ton of overlapping coverage, which is like the core of, of spatial audio. I, 

Sean Walker: How do we do that? 

Nat Houle: so, so if you were, uh, so, okay, so imagine like a small proscenium, uh, space, like, you know, less than a thousand seats. Uh, so what you would typically do for, you know, for theater, there are a few different approaches, but, so it could just be a left, right? Maybe that's what you have. Or maybe you have a vocal cluster in the center. 

Maybe you're a designer who does the like 40, 60, 60, 40 thing where you put, um, you know, that, that ratio of the vocal into the left, right. Uh, or, you know, some variation of that. Maybe, maybe the vocal and band systems are separate, maybe they're not. Um, but usually in theater. Andy, would you agree? Like it's, it's usually a, a variation on that idea. 

Andy Leviss: Like, that's an interesting way to describe it that I haven't heard, but conceptually, yeah. Yeah. Kind of vocals. Predominantly centered, but make sure they're getting everywhere and band a little more, I don't want to use, I, I hesitate to use the word with a little bit more space to it 'cause that's not remotely the kinda space we're talking about with spatial audio, but yeah. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. Um, and that's, that's what I mean by like the traditional, um, you know, sort of New York or Broadway way of thinking about it. Um, but I mean, this is everywhere too. Like this is, this is the way a lot of performing arts centers are designed. So instead of doing that though, where we're trying to separate things out by having, uh, uh, a very wide band and then a very centrally located vocal, instead we're putting several speaker across the front that are ideally within whatever SPL, you know, goal gradient is ideally all covering. 

Um, and imagine this without a balcony just for a second, uh, are all covering the audience within that, within that gradient. Uh, so the right, the rightmost speaker, you know, might be angled in a little bit and we want it to be nice and wide and, uh, hopefully hitting the back row within 60 B five db whatever, whatever, you know, your goal is. 

Uh, so that would be, you know, just your frontal system and that way. Because we're all, you know, within just a couple DB of experiencing something, if it's panned from left to right, if that object is derived from left to right across the pa, uh, because we are all in a very similar overlap of coverage, we can experience that very evenly so that somebody on house right experiences the same pan as somebody, uh, who is house left as somebody who is center. 

They will never be completely perfect. But having that overlapping coverage is the key to making that actually work. Um, and but the same goes through for the 

Sean Walker: If it's not perfect, I'm out. Like it's gotta be perfect every time. 

Andy Leviss: That's a new approach for you. 

Sean Walker: Hey, I'm turning over a new leaf. All right, get off my case. 

Nat Houle: Um, so that, you know, that state that is kind of the foundation for, for the frontal system, uh, on the website. I go through a couple more, but the thing is that every modality is so different with how it treats that, that I would be like breaching the gap into what, what manufacturers should be presenting about their products. 

Um, but same idea with surrounds, same ideas with, with overheads, um, hitting as many people as possible unless you have to get into like, okay, balcony zone, under balcony zone, which, which with a lot of solutions you can do better than others. Uh, you know, that basic idea stays overlapping coverage everywhere and the algorithm is doing the, the work of the correlation. 

So that's not something that you, you as the consumer should have to worry about. 

Sean Walker: So since you, uh, let's say are platform agnostic at this point, and you have worked with all of the platforms, are they basically all, uh. Tackling a similar framework differently, or do they have entirely different approaches to accomplishing this goal? 

Nat Houle: I see them as entirely different approaches. So, um, so for example, uh, so like with Pan Lab, so like Daniel Higgott created, I think, I think you guys have talked to him, uh, before in the podcast. Yeah. So he, you know, he created a 

Andy Leviss: he, he is another one on the list of folks that we've talked about having on and 

Nat Houle: Oh, gotcha. 

Andy Leviss: on. 

Sean Walker: Sorry, I was nodding 'cause I saw that. I've seen that name in the emails. I'm Oh yeah, yeah, we, of course we have. Oh wait, he's on the list. Nevermind. 

Nat Houle: Um, so, you know, the, 

Sean Walker: the good work here. 

Nat Houle: the problem that Daniel solved with Pan Lab was that, you know, sound designers, if we want something to move around the room, we have to write a ton of fade cues and like thinking just about playback, right? Like Pan Lab is really primarily playback. Uh, and he, yeah, so he solved this problem of I have to write a bunch of key lab phase and it's gonna take me forever to do, and when the director asked me to change it, it's gonna take me forever to adjust it. 

Uh, so what his product fixes is that the sound designer would have to pro program that themselves as opposed to being able to drag a sound effect object and for it to basically create, create the fades automatically. Um, so that is a specific problem that, that he solved and he made it very budget friendly. 

Um, so like that was his perspective as, as a sound designer. And, uh, I mean he obviously he could speak to that, um, but. 

Andy Leviss: was gonna say, I, I, I would de, I'd describe it as spatial audio for the rest of us. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, you know, that is a specific solution. Um, L-ISA, I see I, there's a special place in my heart for L-ISA as like the, the first, uh, platform that really like struck me. I mean, it completely changed my artistic approach, uh, as a designer. Uh, you know, I think that the approach with L-ISA is incredibly rooted in art, uh, and a solution. 

And this is not to say that soundscape isn't, because I, like, I would never say that, but, but the fundamental system perspective of soundscape is a very different approach. So like the actual coloration and, uh, reason of how a solution, uh, came about. Uh, you know, they, we can all use them in artistic ways as like, but I think that certain ones are more rooted in the connection to the creative and others are more rooted in the technical solution side of it. 

Um, so, you know. Uh, I, so there's, there's that, and then there's also the side of what the user experiences and how much control they have and how much they can see. So something like Space Map go is very modular. Uh, you can, because you can be representing where speakers are in a very literal way or in a very abstract way. 

Um, you have like total control. Uh, and also like the way that space Map go deals with subwoofers and your options with, with Signal with that is completely different than L-ISA, than with soundscape. So. Um, it your, what I will say is like, I think consumer literacy is really important with when, how you're viewing different approaches. 

And I spent a lot of time just going to these different tradings and comparing them, uh, and figuring out what was similar enough that I could put it on the website versus what was specific to each one. And, and the way that it was presented by the educational staff, whoever was teaching those courses, um, is, is just that, is that characteristics of that company's approach. 

Um, and, and a DB soundscape workshop is going to have a very technical explanation for things. I think the L-ISA one is very, um, I find it to be very mixed focused. Uh, and then, you know, there's other, other solutions like Timex and Pan Lab and spat and, and whatever coloration that they're presenting it with. 

I think you should take as a consumer, as this is the philosophical goal of this, and it's important to understand it, you can also break the rules. Um, but, but appreciating that and knowing that there are those differences, I think is really important. I hope I didn't knock any manufacturer there. 

Sean Walker: No, dude. Totally not. 

Andy Leviss: fair handed overview. 

Sean Walker: Yeah, totally not. And we heard the L-ISA demo at NAMM and it was pretty fricking cool dude. It was cool to like, hear the space in the mix and, and it, it was, it was rad, dude. I would've, uh, I would've liked to go see the other two that were there, but we didn't get to, we had run around like chickens or heads cut off, but. 

Andy Leviss: like I, at least it's like we've talked about, like I've done the soundscape training and mixed a little bit on the soundscape system and, and a little bit of space map go and yeah, they're all, they're all doing broadly similar things in, in, in interesting and unique ways and yeah, with different, like, strengths and, and, uh, I don't wanna say weaknesses, but each one has different strengths, 

Nat Houle: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Andy Leviss: is the, is 

Sean Walker: and are those, are those only available on those manufacturer's boxes or can you take that processing to third party manufacturers? Like, can you take that and go, like, if, if a venue already has an installed rig, can you supplement their rig with that and more speakers, or is it a literal tear the whole thing out and put in a whole new manufacturer's rig? 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. So this is the thing that manufacturers don't, um, well, actually, I, I think, you know, Brad, Brad does a great job at this. Um, but, uh, manufacturers don't say it out loud, but I've, I've used a space map go system with DB speakers. I've used, um, uh, Meyer speakers in a, an L-ISA system, and I've used, uh, Meyer speakers in a soundscape system. 

So, um, there's certain things, for example, like an R one, if, if, if the backbone of the system is d and b and you're adding, you're supplementing with Meyer speakers or you're supplementing with, um. Acoustic speakers, there's gonna be certain options you don't have because you need to basically fake having that amplifier, um, that, you know, fake in your prediction. 

Having that speaker, having that amplifier, um, in order for the configuration to be all lined up. Um, so, so there's certain like drawbacks as far as control where, oh, okay, I have to open up, I now I have to open up Compass or I have to open up, you know, you, you're adding extra layers to it, but there's no, there's no reason why you can't use any manufacturer speakers with, you know, the modality that you're, that you have the, the box for, you 

Sean Walker: not as elegant, but it will work. 

Nat Houle: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Sean Walker: I got you. 

Nat Houle: Yeah. More windows. 

Sean Walker: like we need that, like we need more windows in front of house. 

Nat Houle: Uh, but I think that that's really, that's really important to know because, you know, when I, when I first went to Westlake, that was what convinced me, oh, this is possible for me of like, oh, I can get into spatial audio. Because, because I knew, okay, I have, I have mostly a ton of Meyer speakers to work with. 

Um, I can actually use an acoustics, uh, you know, software with this and make this happen. That's crazy. Uh, and that is like, I think that that is the people, the thing that a lot of people don't realize, and that's like the turnkey to this is actually possible. Um, so like that, if I could scream that out to the world, I would, does not have to be that manufacturers, uh, processor necessarily. 

And not all of them have processors. 

Sean Walker: That sure makes it a whole lot more accessible if you can like, use mostly what you got and and supplement rather than having to do a total reinstall if you own a venue, you know. 

Nat Houle: exactly. Yeah. Um, at, there's a, there's a page on the website, uh, called It'll cost too much. It used to be called, it'll Cost Too Much, bro. And I was told, uh, by my thesis committee, I couldn't put bro everywhere. Uh, but on that page, uh, 

Sean Walker: Bro, what do you mean? kidding me, bro? Like, we're on the West Coast. You can say bro to anybody. Anybody can be dude or bro, and it, 

Nat Houle: exactly. Yep. 

Sean Walker: it's, no, it's not offensive on the west coast. Whatcha guys doing on the East Coast over there? Are you getting sassy? 

Andy Leviss: fuck you. 

Sean Walker: I'm gonna start this biggie. Tupac shit, dog. 

What? 

Andy Leviss: That's what we're doing on the, on the East Coast. We're just telling you to go fuck yourself. 

Nat Houle: Uh. 

Sean Walker: as usual, then I got it. 

Nat Houle: So the, the other, I think the other part important part about accessibility. So like, number one, you don't necessarily have to be using that same manufacturer's processor. They would love it if you did, but um, you know, it is okay, you can use different speakers. Um, and then the second thing is that like when you hear spatial audio get out of your head this idea of I have to have a million speakers. 

Um, I, there's one manufacturer that, that is, is pretty insistent on, like, that is the thing that. When consumers hear that, that it can be just 108 degrees, it can be just the frontal system that is the thing that makes them believe, oh, this is actually accessible for me. Um, so not imagining a million surround speakers. 

Um, I've, like I, I've done systems with only surround speakers. I've done a system with no surround speakers, but overheads, um, I've done a, you know, fully 360, uh, spatial system. And, and all of those still qualify. And you can also have a mix of channel based and object based. So if you wanted to do, keep the like band left right thing. 

Um, where a, a certain partition of the PA is just handling that and then do object based, uh, you know, with a, across the front system for your, your vocals for the actors, then that, like, that's totally legitimate too. It can be a hybrid. Um, there's, there's a couple other places where I talk about that and, and describe it as like, uh, it's spatial audio can be the cherry on top that you add, or it can be the entire cake. 

And I, you know, either way is okay. Uh, and then the, the third thing that I think people really need to hear about it being accessible. Is that, uh, you, like, you have to start somewhere. Uh, if, if you're interested in it and where you start might not be the place that you end, right? Like I had an interaction with spatial audio modality before L-ISA that didn't really necessarily work with my brain, and then I, you know, tried other ones and I realized, oh, it's, it's just that my understanding of how I can interact with sound is changing and that it's not just like, oh, it's not, oh, this product didn't work for me because it, it's not a good product. 

But because I, I wasn't ready to absorb, this is how I'm interacting with the sound as a designer. Um. So like giving yourself the chance to have a learning experience with spatial audio and not automatically, uh, like judging the tool and just like letting your brain get used to it, I think is, is is really important. 

And like I said, it might not work for you the first time it might work, you know, you might really, uh, vibe well with soundscape and you might not vibe that well with spa and you know, it, you just have to try it out to know. And it shouldn't be like, oh, Andy told me that, you know, L-ISA sucks, L-ISA's reb revenge and sucks. 

Like, you know, and, and that's the thing that I base my entire artistic approach on not using L-ISA. There are a couple people like that, that I know. Um, and it's like, try the tool yourself and, you know, get to know, go to the demo facility, actually hear it yourself and don't just trust what you hear online because all these special marketing words that are pitched to us as consumers can really muddle our understanding of, of what the thing is that we're actually talking about. 

Sorry, that was a lot. 

Andy Leviss: No, that's, that's great. And that's, and I, I feel like we've like touched and danced around it too. That little bit of that I, that I wanna flag for folks is, and where that language and precision comes in and like immersive versus spatial, is that there is so much of spatial audio that is not immersive and like immersive audio, like where the audio is all around you as an audience is by its nature going to be some sort of spatial audio. 

But there is like all that, like that object based positional, like in theater that like, you might not be doing that at all. Or like you said, not having surrounds and just using it to help us, you know, drop into a system and Nope. As well. Oh, 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. 

Andy Leviss: oh, gotcha. Um, no, I, I think it was more just like, just, just, and calling out, like what we were talking about, 

Nat Houle: or made a statement. 

Andy Leviss: how spatial audio doesn't necessarily need to be immersive and, and is useful in ways that aren't that, and, and in that sense of like providing positioning information for like, particularly in theater for actors on stage and that sort of thing. 

Um, and I think that's the thing you called out that helps clarify a lot of that language and, and I wanna make sure folks caught that. 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I, I think so. I mean, if, I hope, I hope it's coming through that, like, my, my goal is for people, my goal is that we get into a place like a few years from now where sound designers actually feel like when they're approaching a show that they, uh, are actively making a choice at the crossroads of spatial or not spatial or some sort of hybrid of that. 

Because I think right now, uh, and I, I mean, I even feel this as an associate designer. I, I feel like it's, you know, there's this main road of, this is our traditional approach to system design, and then there's like an unpaved road that's like, you know, there's some weeds growing over it and stuff that's like a little trail off to the side that's spatial and like only a few people get to go on that. 

And, and I really hope that we get to a place where it feels like more distinct, um, paths to choose from. Where. It where that is a reflection on the storytelling and on the designer as opposed to just a reflection of budget, because it really doesn't have to be anymore. It's still a thing, but there are a lot of different ways to navigate that without going crazy over budget. 

Um, Robert Scoville right now is working on this series. Uh, I think, I think the first couple articles were in Livestock International, and then I think the most recent one, I think it was Church Town Magazine, I could be wrong. Um, but he's working on a series talking about this, this in the context of like concerts and, and he, uh, with the church town one, he, he kind of detoured to talk about House of Worship and um, one of the examples that he gave was an install that literally cost the same as the, uh, mono stereo, whatever it was, version. 

Um, I'm summarizing it kind of badly, but, uh, and then on my website I have an example where the spatial solution was actually cheaper than the mono stereo, uh, version of the design. So like, all of all, everything that I just said is like, don't just automatically make the judgment about, uh, Andy likes this tool, so I should like this tool, or it's gonna cost too much. 

Or like, don't, like, you have to give yourself a chance. And that's why I characterize it like, this is an emotional and psychological thing. It is a switch, the, like, the technical part of learning about how it all works and it interacting, uh, with, you know, a hawk differently, interacting with sound, vision differently, et cetera. 

Like that's, that manufacturer can handle that. But the gap there is what I'm trying to, to address, and that's what I really care about, is like making sure that designers feel emboldened to make the choice. 

Sean Walker: Are you feeling like designers are starting to make that choice more? Are you seeing more traction with that and more people doing, uh, immersive shows? 

Nat Houle: Well, I mean, you see, I mean, I could talk about it for days, but like the outsiders, which Cody Spencer designed, uh, on Broadway is like the perfect example of something that is so special and like, not at a hundred percent, but 110% where the imprint that it made. I think, uh, as far as within the sound design community, uh, I, I don't think that that should be like dismissed as, as, uh, you know, because of certain resources budgetarily, this was able to happen. 

Um, it, there's a number of different things, like Cody had to work hard at trying to get that to happen. I, I talked to a little bit with him about it. Um, and when you see that like shining example or a Gareth Soundscape show like mj, when you see those shining examples of what the technology can do, um, I think that it, it, I. 

Is motivating, but it's also discouraging to people because they think that it has to be that big of a show for them to use it. They have to have those connections, those resources. And that's not, that's not true. So I see, I see L-ISA being used quite a bit. I like, I feel, I feel like, you know, maybe once a month I'll hear of a production that I, you know, am a third party to, you know, connected to via friends of friends or whatever using L-ISA. 

I think there was just a show at UCLA, um, great comment that was, was in L-ISA. Um, so I see, I see it more, but, but there's this sense of like, of distance and there's this sense of it could never happen to me, and, and it's sort of silly, you know? 

Sean Walker: lemme just clear that gap up like immediately. Elise's Studio is available as a free download from our acoustics website that you can run on your computer and if you have the ability to get audio in and out of your computer, you can have a immersive show on any speaker system you 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's something that not a lot of people know. Um, 

Sean Walker: and those of you that know us means we're gonna use some Dante virtual sound card and get our L-ISA on our RC Fre and see what kind of crazy shit we can get into. Oh, it's gonna be horrible the first time. Dude, you guys get, you guys get, watch this dumpster fire that I'm about to put out here. 

Nat Houle: No, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. Uh, that's, yeah, that's the other thing. Like this is fun. It is so fun when you, uh, uh, not to like pick on Cody more, but like seeing the outsiders, I got to sit next to Heather Augustine and, and watch her mix and she is just incredible. Um, but I remembered there was one point where I was looking down at her fingers for a second 'cause she was just like, like lightning. 

Uh, and then the next second, and I looked up and my brain and my eyes and my body went exactly to the place where the actor was singing, like not the general direction, like to their face. My, my entire body was connected to the theatrical experience, to this one person singing from exactly where they were singing. 

And I could tell precisely where they were. Um, that feeling or the feeling of your content being mixed spatially for the first time. Uh, if you're a composer, uh, the feeling of having the way that you imagined a sequence happen actually happened in real life. That is the other emotional component of it. 

Spatial audio feels so good and that, I don't know if manufacturers have found a way to express that, but it, it in your body feels good. I call it like the brain tangles. Um, you know, some people get that from like binaural listening to binaural, uh, recordings. But for me it is a whole other sensory, sensory experience that is like, I wanna, I wanna have it every time I walk into a venue, and it's hard sometimes to listen to my own content, like, you know, deliver through mono after having experienced it facially. 

Andy Leviss: It is a little, little easier to walk 

Sean Walker: that was a different decade for me experiencing things like that at shows. But, know, we'll try to do it with spatial audio now too. Yeah, right. Totally. What, so what are we calling this? Is it spatial audio or immersive, or what's the right terminology we using? So I don't sound like such a dumb shit when I'm walking around town going, Hey, we're talking about this. 

Nat Houle: Um, I think, I think that object based is, is a great, like, very specific way to talk about it. Um, I kind of use object based and spatial interchangeably. Um, I think if you say spatial audio at this point, people know what you're talking about. I, I avoid saying 3D because three DI feel like number one, it's more attributed to like studio, uh, and academic environments where this is taking place in like a small room and it's not for live sound. 

And the other thing with 3D is that we're talking about height and not every, not every um, you know, spatial audio system needs to have the height or overhead component. Um, yeah. 

Sean Walker: So when we wanna do something crazy like L-ISA in an arena, we can just have you come up and knock some nerd shit out for us and we'll just get, get bananas up here. 

Nat Houle: Oh, I, 

Sean Walker: Rigging. Rigging will hate everything about it. It's gonna be great, dude. Let's do it. 

Nat Houle: um, you know, I will say, you know, ever since graduating, like I, I, I got to do a ton of spatial audio work in grad school. And then ever since graduating, I, I've had a hard time, and this is something I wanna integrate it into the website somehow, but e even I, as somebody who's crazy about it, um, have trouble integrating it into my own shows. 

Because a lot of the times the shows that I'm asked to do are, um, you know, if it's at somewhere between a community and regional theater, like, not Lort, but, uh, that, or if it's at, um. You know, like Cal State LA or something like that. A lot of times my board operators are students or our interns where, uh, adding another layer on top, unless it's Pan Lab, where it's in the programming and they don't have to worry about it, um, that can be an added layer that is not actually like conducive to their learning process with them being exposed to the technology and everything. 

So I have to make the decision of, am I gonna go the extra mile with this? And sometimes I want to and I can't because of, you know, the way that something's going technically, or other barriers. And those are real, and those are, you know, real reasons to not use the technology if you know that you can't actually execute it well. 

Um, and that, that's, that's important too, is. If, if you can't execute it well or your team isn't behind it, uh, or you know that you can't get to them, to a place where they would be able to troubleshoot it well, um, then those are good reasons for not doing it. And it's probably better to have like less shows that are badly executed spatial audio shows, which I have had before, you know, than, than, uh, you know, it's better to have few really wonderful examples, uh, than to have a bunch of them roaming around and not being executed that well, if that makes sense. 

Sean Walker: Totally. 

Nat Houle: but school, like that's what school is for. You know, that that's the place to 

Andy Leviss: Tarik, I need all the 

Sean Walker: Well, I'm gonna figure out how to take school at the arena so that we can rock some L-ISA shows at 

Andy Leviss: Um, 

Sean Walker: or soundscape or go or whatever. You know, I, I'm also manufacture agnostic, 

Andy Leviss: New, new RCF choice. 

Sean Walker: Dude. All of 'em, bro. Gimme all of 'em. Oh my God. Speaking of that, they got a new one coming out that's gonna blow your fricking mind, bro. 

Andy Leviss: to it. Um, I mean, I was gonna wrap up, Nat asking you if like, about like common misconceptions, but I feel like we've touched on most of those. So 

Sean Walker: Yeah, dog. Get dog. 

Andy Leviss: well, that, that, that, I was gonna say, that was the other question that we've been slacking lately is the, I mean, and I'll give you the choice of either Poughkeepsie or Burbank. 

Sean Walker: Yeah. I wanna talk about food. 

Andy Leviss: those areas, where do we go to 

Sean Walker: What's up with food and coffee right now? Dude? Where you at in the world, dude? 

Andy Leviss: Hey, we might, the best meal I had in, in Stockholm was at a vegan restaurant. 

Nat Houle: Uh, okay. I'm vegan, so you're not gonna like these answers. Um, but I, but. 

Oh yeah. 

Sean Walker: Dude, I, I can mess a vegan. 

Nat Houle: Oh, really? Okay. This is good. 

Sean Walker: I can, I can mess A vegan dude. 

Nat Houle: Oh, 

Sean Walker: Me, me and that pen are gonna get started out. Dude, don't even worry about it. 

Nat Houle: uh, there's a, there's a restaurant in downtown LA that I'll go to if I'm working at, uh, red Cat, uh, or seeing a show at Disney, uh, called Oloc and, uh, that like, just very creative, like fusion food. Uh, all vegan, all plant-based. Um, so. I'll sneak over there if I'm a red cat. Um, and then in Burbank we have, we have a, there's one called, uh, it's actually Studio City, but there's one called Coco, uh, which is like a vegetarian ramen shop. 

Uh, and then one of my favorites is something vegan, uh, which is in Toluca Lake. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's a little easier being vegan out here, uh, than in, than in Poughkeepsie. Uh, but in Poughkeepsie, if you're by Vassar College or like, you know, the powerhouse, um, that area, there's one called Twisted Soul that I really like, and I think they, they have like vegan, vegetarian, and normal people. 

Yeah. 

Sean Walker: We got, we got one person on our team that's, that's the same. And so we end up with those. Choices a lot, and I'm absolutely astounded at how often it's delicious. And then there's a few times where I'm like, oh man, choices were made, but it's like 80% delicious and 20% like, Nope, not doing it today buddy. 

I'm full cheeseburger for me dog. You know what I mean? 

Nat Houle: I mean, yeah. The funny thing is vegans feel that way too. I think. Like there's very specific brands that I know I like and I can work with, and other ones that I just can't. And the funny thing is like sometimes there's a lot more flavoring and seasoning because there has to be, because it's not from flesh, it's not, you know, you're not tasting flesh, you're not tasting the skin of a chicken, so the seasoning better be freaking good. 

Sean Walker: Totally. But like there's also lots of things that make it super easy. Like FU 

Andy Leviss: and I'll, since, since I teased it all throughout, if 

Sean Walker: those things that, you know what I mean? You can just make it real easy in other places 

Andy Leviss: a waterfront buffet. And I thi, I might have even mentioned it on the podcast before, but it 

Sean Walker: if you're into that sort of 

Andy Leviss: like up, like on the, on the side of a hill overlooking the waterfront and Stockholm, and it's a rotating selection of like, you know, like Indian, Mexican, like all different things, but it's entirely vegan. 

And like I went on years ago, I was, I was actually Sam kus past guest, and I were over there for, uh, teaching a QAP class years ago. And like, I took a tour and asked the guide like, oh, where should we eat? What we're. In town for a couple days and he was like, okay, the first place, I'm gonna tell you it's vegan, but I'm gonna pause before I tell you anything more about it and tell you that I am a meat lover. 

And the next place I'm gonna tell you about is a steak place. That said, the first place you need to go is Herman's. And it is, it's Fanta. It's like an all you can eat vegan buffet and you will keep going back for more. And then like you can sit outside on like these like tiered patios on the side of the 

Sean Walker: Dude. Awesome. I love that. 

Andy Leviss: And it's pretty, it's pretty wild. 

Sean Walker: Hell yeah. 

Nat Houle: Oh, 

Sean Walker: Killer dude. 

Nat Houle: You know, I think now that I, now that I think about it and juxtapose those two topics together, I think that being vegan is actually a lot like spatial audio because what most people know of it 

Andy Leviss: here, here. I thought you were gonna say that the first rule of 

Nat Houle: audio or who are not vegan, like have misconceptions about the other, the other, uh, you know, the other side. 

Andy Leviss: Uh, um, and on and on that note, and I mean, is there anything 

Nat Houle: yeah. Lots of similarities. 

Andy Leviss: had asked you or that you wanna share with folks before we wrap up? 

Nat Houle: Um, hmm. Well, you know, this is kind of like, this is my own dream about spatial audio that I don't, I don't know if any manufacturer has really taken advantage of this, but, but because of how, um, unexpectedly accessible this is and like, it's gonna be even more accessible soon when Object-based Q Lab comes out. 

Um, but, uh, there, because of how accessible it is without people realizing it, how accessible it is, I think that sec uh, spatial audio is sort of the second chance of us to change, um, the demographics, a little bit of the sound industry. So, as an example, like I am, you know, I'm a woman interested in the spatial audio, so I look at, um, the other women who are doing spatial audio teaching, spatial audio, um, using it in their work, even in studio world a little bit. 

Um, and I look to those people as. As mentors and, um, as sort of the next generation. And I think that there is a opportunity to get more women in there. I think there's an opportunity to get all of the other marginalized, uh, folks, uh, interacting in a different way and sharing their art in a different way. 

And, you know, at a, at a higher level, uh, through, through this new modality and making it, uh. Making it theirs and diversifying it more like there's, this is, I think, a second chance at like, what the history of audio has been. I hope that makes sense. Um, I, I just think there's a whole opportunity there for, for new voices to be stepping up. 

Um, especially with modalities that are very rooted in art like L-ISA. Uh, if you are, you know, like Sean mentioned, having 16 outputs for free, that's huge. And you should be able to do that as long as you have the pa Um, you should be able to, to use that and to explore that and go deeper and, and maybe that becomes your thing. 

Um, and, and that accessibility is, is just, it's really important. And I wanna break down that barrier. Like gatekeeping shouldn't be a thing, uh, in this field, in this, uh, realm of it. 

Andy Leviss: to your website and check it out. It's like super compelling. Uh, yeah, like some, lots of great information there and a great overview and, and then, yeah, no, at mh spatial dot it's dot com, right? Yeah. I keep wanting to say.org, and then I'm like, Nope, it's dot com. 

Sean Walker: Don't go to the website, I 

Andy Leviss: and we'll link to it in the show notes. 

Sean Walker: Just, just don't do 

Andy Leviss: for folks Link, since we mentioned Heather and the Outsiders, we'll link to the episode we did about Heather talking about both her career and that show, like right after they won the, the Tony Award last year. Um, yeah, and I, I, I think I leave it to Shonda to wrap us up as is tradition around these parts. 

Nat Houle: Mm-hmm. 

Sean Walker: Nat, thank you so much for hanging out and chatting about spatial audio. We really do appreciate you and uh, you know, getting learnt today about stuff. That's awesome. Thank you everyone for watching. Thanks to a heath and RCF for letting us yap for another week. That's the pod y'all. See you next week. I.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green