294. More About Building A Freelance Career With Brian Maddox

Picking up where they left off in Episode 293, the hosts continue the conversation Brian Maddox about building a successful freelance career in live events. This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

Brian brings the unique perspective of not only being one of the most in-demand freelance mixers in the corporate event market, but having built a new freelance career after pivoting from a staff job at three different times in his life.

Episode Links:
STN Episode 151 With Brian Maddox (Next Generation Audio Professionals)
STN Episode 243 With Brian Maddox (Mixing Corporate Events, Part 1)
STN Episode 244 With Brian Maddox (Mixing Corporate Events, Part 2)
STN Episode 275 With Brian Maddox (Mixing For The 2024 Paris Olympics)
Brian Maddox Articles On ProSoundWeb
Episode 294 Transcript

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Transcript

Episode 294 - Brian Maddox on Freelancing, part 2

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, whose new dLive RackUltra FX upgrade levels up your console with 8 next-generation FX racks – putting powerful tools like vocal tuning, harmonizing, and amp simulation right at your fingertips. Learn more at allen-heath.com 

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Andy Leviss: Hey, everyone, it's Andy, with a quick note before today's episode. This is part two of a conversation we had with our friend and yours, Brian Maddox, on advice for building a freelance career, that started in the last episode, number 293. If you haven't already listened to that, you'll want to start there first--a link is in the show notes, or you can find it in your podcast feed wherever you listen--and then come back here once you're caught up.

Now, if everybody's up to speed, let's pick up where we left off last time!

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green

[00:01:22] Brian Maddox: I mean, it's, I mean, we could talk at this, that's, that's 17 podcasts right there. Like, it's because there's, there's so many levels to that. Um.

[00:01:34] Sean Walker: the, we need the content. Brian, come on. 17 episodes. Let's do.

[00:01:38] Brian Maddox: but I mean, fr from the, the simplest level, and, and I've encountered this recently on a half, on the last half dozen gigs or so that I did, um, where I had, uh, where I was working with local crew and something didn't go right.

Um, I, I'm out front pushing my faders and something, you know, something wasn't right or whatever, and, you know, then it got sorted out and fixed. And then the, you know, the person I was working with told me over the comms Yeah. Such and such. It was such and such or whatever, whatever the problem was. And, you know, the so and so didn't set this right up, whatever.

So I fixed it and I knew they were lying. I, I, I've been doing this a long time. So it's like, uh, the problem that got solved would not have gotten solved. Doing the thing that you just said you did to fix it. You made a mistake and you didn't cop to it, and now I don't trust you.

[00:02:45] Sean Walker: Hundred percent

[00:02:46] Brian Maddox: And as a result of, it's like you can do the stupidest thing ever.

I just handed out 17 wireless microphones and didn't plug in the antennas. Like, and boy is that stupid. And I've got the CEO up there doing rehearsals and, and it's dropping out and people are complaining and I'm scrambling and I plug the antennas in and now it's fine. And I get on with the A one and I go, dude, I'm sorry I, it was dumb.

You know, I, I did all those checks earlier. I just forgot to plug in the antennas. And I'm like.

[00:03:23] Sean Walker: carried away. Doing calm or whatever, right?

[00:03:25] Brian Maddox: Or whatever. I don't care. I don't even care what, what, what stupid reason. It's like, you know, I, I, I ate too many Twix. I don't care. It's like,

[00:03:32] Sean Walker: Just, just own it and have integrity.

[00:03:34] Brian Maddox: yeah. And then it's like, now I trust you, but the second that you blow smoke up my ass, it's like, now I don't trust you for anything.

And I sure as heck am not going to recommend you for anything. And I'm not the, you know, this just, I'll, I'll blow my own horn slightly here, but I'm not the one that you want to not recommend you for a gig. 'cause I'm in a position to, to help people. And you want people like me to be your advocates. And all you have to do is say, I screwed up.

I made a mistake. Or if I ask you to do something and you just say, I don't know how to do that, I. We are cool. Like, this is not a problem. Let's walk through it. Let's see if we can, you know, if I know how to do it, I'll help you work through it or help you learn it, or this or that, or whatever. But if you misrepresent yourself to me or you screw up something and you don't just own it as that was me and I made a mistake, that that's, that is, that's reputation crushing.

Like, you just, you can't overstate how you just, you just, just fricking own it. No matter how dumb it was. No matter how much, you know, anybody should have known better no matter how long you've been doing this business. Like I've had to do it in the last six months, two or three times. Like, Nope, that was me.

Push the wrong button, you know? Oops, that was me. Like, I, you know, Nope. That was my, that was, that was my mistake. That, nope, that was my, did something dumb. Like it happens to all of us, but the second that you try to push it off on somebody else or try to, you know, cover it up, it's like, it's like, dude, I've been doing this long enough to know, like the, the thing that you said was the problem doesn't match the, the problem.

Like it's, you know, something's missing here and you're just, you're just not telling me the, the whole story. Um, and, uh, what was the question?

[00:05:42] Andy Leviss: I mean, I mean, we're like three questions down. I actually, before we get back to the other question I had asked that we got off course from, I, uh, there's a question that comes up from that, that's a thing I had to kind of figure out recently on a job I was on that I'm curious, Brian, your approach is a freelancer too, which is you're on a job site for a company.

You know, say it's a company you know and trust, like somebody, the, the project manager, the project lead, whoever who's not there on site has made an honest mistake that is like, has set the day back, as you know, caused some sort of issue for the show. They have copped to it to you. You are the one on site, you have a client coming to you saying, Hey, what's going on?

What's the delay? How would you thread that needle in the answering the client, honestly, but you are not the person to throw that person under the butt to like, it's like threading, threading that needle of, you know, giving an honest enough answer, but leaving space for your boss to take the responsibility, which hopefully if it's somebody you are working for regularly, do you know, you know that they will.

And I'm, I'm, I'm curious how you would've done

[00:06:52] Brian Maddox: Yeah, it's a, I mean, it's a, it's a great question, and you're right, it's, it is a bit of a needle thread. I, I try really, really, really hard to never throw anyone under a bus. I also, especially on, especially on a job site, when it's like, we just need to get this done, like this gig. I, I, I talk about this all the time as like this is, this is the difference between what we do for a living and what most people do for a living.

And that is the show is going to happen at seven. It doesn't make any difference if all five trucks on the way to the gig caught fire. The gig is going to happen at seven. The doors are gonna open, crowd is gonna come in, the gig is gonna happen. It's, this has got to get done. And so ultimately, especially when a, a situation where things really go sideways, every second spent dealing with blame is a waste of a second.

[00:07:52] Sean Walker: A trillion percent.

[00:07:53] Brian Maddox: And it's so, it's like I, I, I always come from that place. It's like I am not going to waste time on blame. Now if I'm in a situation where these 10 speakers were supposed to come to the gig, but instead we only got these four and these two bullhorns, and so we're behind the, the, the eight ball, because this is what's here, I will say.

You know, originally the plan was we were supposed to have these 10 speakers. Unfortunately, what we have is these four speakers and these two bullhorns. This is what we have on site. This is the plan of how we're going to implement that to make the most out of what we have so that we can accomplish the goal with what's here.

Her, I don't spend any time about whose fault it was, who didn't send it, why they didn't send it. I always have trouble with this vendor, you know, you know, Eddie's, you know, a heavy drinker, like whatever. Like all of that is like, that's, that's irrelevant. And I just move past all that to this is our situation and this is how we're moving forward.

And, you know, and, and there you, and it's so, it's like I, I, I'm making it clear that things out of my control have happened.

I'm not pointing fingers at, but it was their fault and their fault and their fault. Because most of the time I don't even really know, like I have suspicions, but I don't even really know. It could be, you know, it is a thousand different things that could have happened that made the wrong package of things.

I ha I I did a gig recently and if, if the folks that were on this gig or our listens of the, the podcast, hi. Um, but, uh, I did a gig recently where the, they sent me more speakers than speaker cable. Like literally I had more loudspeakers than I had pieces of speaker cable of any length. Obviously somebody dropped a ball somewhere.

Obviously I. At the end of the day, we, we were too far away from it couldn't be it, it couldn't be fixed locally. It was just like, so I'm just like, okay, so this situation I have, so I'm gonna have to put these speakers in a non-ideal position because I have to do this because I only have this links because I have this, because I have this, and these are the compromises I'm gonna have to make.

And so this is just what we're gonna have to do. And so there you go. And instead of spending a whole bunch of time, you know, running around, throwing everybody under the bus because they didn't send me no speaker cable, like it's, it's kind of a waste of, of, of energy. It's like, get the gig done.

[00:10:51] Sean Walker: Absolutely. And here's the other thing. Will add to that. I agree with everything you said, and I'll add one thing to that, and that is almost at no time does the client think that the freelance front of house engineer fucked up packing the truck. Right? Like, not enough speaker cables or something got whack.

Nobody's going, Brian, you set up a bitch. They're like, oh man. Well, how are we gonna fix it? And if you're fixing it, they're like, cool. He's just doing the best with what he's got. Nobody's like, oh man, you didn't pack the truck. You're like, bro, I live in a different state. Of course I didn't pack the truck.

You know what I mean? I flew to the airport, I flew, I Ubered here. That's my involvement. You know what I mean? Nobody's like, Brian, what the hell? So there's no reason for you to come unglued and, and I don't mean you specifically, but like, you know the kids that are coming up learning this, right? Come on, unglued just makes you look like a dick, right?

Just solve what you got, like you said, and move on. And then everybody's like, he just did the best he could with what he had. That that's all we can ask of anybody.

[00:11:47] Andy Leviss: Yep. And, and again, the, the clarification on that point I wanna make is. Well, I absolutely agree with you that folks don't think like, yeah, the front of house mixers, they, I pack the truck. The other thing that I think is important to remember, especially as you build a freelance career, is that they don't, on the flip side necessarily know that you are a freelancer.

Like you are the face of that company that day and re remember that as well, which is, does not at all invalidate any of what Sean said. Sean is absolutely right, but I think that's an also in the broader scheme of how you present yourself on site remembering, you know, like they don't, they don't know that I work for a, b, C sound yesterday and I'm working for, you know, c and d today.

Uh, you know, they, they just know I'm that whether I have that company t-shirt on or I'm just in like, show black. They know I'm the guy sent there from that company. And that's important to remember too, that you are representing that company even if it's a company you've never worked with before.

[00:12:43] Sean Walker: Totally. Yeah. I, I learned in a, a business seminar one time, they said that your frontline is your bottom line, right? And they're talking about like, the people you put forward is what your clients see, right? That's who interact with your clients and that's what affects your bottom line. If you keep that in mind as a freelancer that like, Hey man, how I present myself, how I interact with people and clients and, and companies and whatever affects my bottom line directly.

It really makes you rethink how you're gonna react to situations. And it is almost always for the better. Your reactions are almost always for the better.

[00:13:15] Brian Maddox: yeah, I'm gonna triple down on what, what Andy, what you said. 'cause I think it's, it's, it's actually, it bears, um, uh, for, for our overarching conversation of, you know, the ABCs of starting out as a freelancer, I would, I would put this as C, like of my A and my B, this would be my C And that is remembering that when you are freelancing and you're working for company A, you represent company a all day, you are company a all day, that's who you are.

You're not Brian Madox and Company A is providing my stuff for me. Like you are representing the company that you, that is paying you and. You help if you let that guide your decisions and the way that you interact with people, when you understand that it starts to make a lot of this nuance a lot simpler.

It's like, you know, I'm working for, for, for Sean's company, you know, I, and, uh, you know, he's hired me for the day and Sean's company leaves something off the truck. Well, I represent Sean's company. I'm not throwing Sean's company under the bus because something wasn't on the truck because I work for his company.

Might just be that day. But I am, I am a rep, representative of Sean and I'm a representative of his company. And I'm not throwing him under the bus because then I'm just throwing me under the bus and once. You get the reputation as the person that takes that attitude. Everybody wants to hire you to represent them because they know this is somebody I can hire as a freelancer who treats this gig as if they were my employee.

They treat this gig as if they were a stakeholder in my company, and that's who I want to call again and again and again. That's huge.

[00:15:18] Sean Walker: A billion percent. If you treat the gigs that I hire you on, as you are a stakeholder in my company, I will call you and only you every fucking time, every time.

[00:15:29] Brian Maddox: I, I'm in, I, I, I have the luxury to be able to do this, and I understand that. You know, I'm farther along in my career and my expenses are low and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So I have, I have some luxuries that, um, but I'm gonna still tell this story. I had a gig very recently, relatively new client to me, so that's part of the story as well.

But small, uh, corporate gig. And we did a couple of days and, um, then the third day rolled around and it turned out that they were gonna break our general session room up into two smaller breakout rooms. And they had a couple other smaller breakout rooms. They were not going to use sound for anything anywhere for all the breakout rooms.

They were just gonna run them, just people talking with like flip charts. And the project lead just kinda looked at me and he was like. He is like, oh, and I should mention, this actually happened. This was a local gig for me, local in Savannah. So this was a, a local gig for me. He's like, he says, I don't, he said, I'm not sure what, what, uh, what, what we'll do with you, but, um, you know, I, I guess it'll just be an easy day for you.

And I, I looked at him and I said, if you don't need me tomorrow, and it is better for you to not pay me for tomorrow, and I just stay home for tomorrow, I'm okay with that. Now, he didn't ask me to do that. He didn't say, I don't have any work for you tomorrow, so I'm not paying you for tomorrow. No, he had already, we'd already had an agreement that I was getting paid for the five days.

He didn't ask me for that, but I offered that. I said, if you don't need me, and as long as we understand that if I don't come in, I'm not on call. If you're not paying me, I am off, I'm gonna be on my motorcycle riding across the countryside. Like, but as long as we understand that if you don't need me and you want to pull my day rate off of your bill so that you make a little bit more money, I am totally fine with that.

And he's like, are you sure? I said, absolutely. And that's exactly what we did. And now they've called me seven more times because they know that. And I, 'cause I told 'em, I said, I want you to make money because when you make money, then I make money. It's

[00:17:54] Sean Walker: And it showed 'em you're looking out for their best interest.

[00:17:56] Brian Maddox: exactly, it's like I'm not Now if they had come at me with, oh yeah, you know, we don't have anything for you to do tomorrow.

So, you know, stay home and, and you know, take that off your bill. It would've been a different conversation.

[00:18:09] Andy Leviss: Yeah, you, Brian would be there tapping on the cancellation clause.

[00:18:12] Brian Maddox: Yeah, it would be a different conversation because, you know, we had a contract and the contract was, I was working that five days and we both understood that, but I took it upon myself to go, but if you want me to, and so those are, and again, I have the, the financial luxury to be able to take the day hit to bet on future work from that company.

That's what that ultimately is. It's one showing an attitude of I want to take care of my client. That's my job. I want you guys to do well, I want you to keep this client, I want you to have a great gig. I want you to make a ton of money. If you can mark me up by 75000% and make $50,000 an hour off of me, have at it, I don't care.

As long as my day rate gets covered and you take care of me, and we do the gig, life is good. And when you take that attitude of I'm here to, to basically make my client's client happy and make my client look good, the, you never have problems with the phone ringing.

[00:19:24] Sean Walker: Preach it, brother Brian. Preach.

[00:19:26] Andy Leviss: Testify. Um, so speaking of the phone ringing, one of the questions that's come up on the podcast or on the Discord a couple times, it's one of the things I wanted you to talk about 'cause I feel like you have a very good answer. You've shared for this a couple times, and it's a thing that is, is a struggle we all struggle with.

Whether we're at the beginning of the career at the later career, the, the pressures that feed into the struggle may change a little bit, but the, I'm booked for two days on this gig or one day on this gig, and then I get a call for a five day gig or even maybe a shorter gig. That's an awesome fucking gig that I've been dying to do.

A company I've been trying to get in with for two years. Finally call me. But it conflicts with that two day gig I already have. What are you doing and how do you do it?

[00:20:10] Brian Maddox: yeah. The, the probably the biggest struggle, and it never, it never fully goes away. One of the biggest struggles with freelancing is, is conflicting gigs. When you have, um, gigs that conflict and conflict, conflict, conflict. Now the word doesn't mean anything, um, that, that, that step on each other. Um,

[00:20:30] Andy Leviss: it here. Brian's word doesn't mean anything.

[00:20:32] Brian Maddox: my word doesn't mean anything.

You were, um, it's like, how, but how do you, you know, how do you work through that, that, that, um, issue and, and it doesn't, it never really goes away. It's always a, it's always a problem. And ultimately, kind of my. Big rule is never bail on anyone ever. That's the overarching rule. Never bail on anybody ever under any circumstances.

You just don't do it. Now, when I have, I, I had, I told the story recently. I had a, um, I had a, a, an unconfirmed gig, and then I had someone else call with a gig that would have been confirmed if I'd said yes, but it overlapped. But the first client had already asked me. I already had them on my calendar as an unconfirmed, penciled in gig.

In my mind, they have right of first refusal. So I was like, when the second client called and said, we need, we'd like you for such and such, it's confirmed. I said, I need to call my first client and I'll call you back. Call my first client. They said, Nope, it's confirmed. No problem. Called the, the second one then called and said, I'm sorry.

You know, they, they've confirmed they had already penciled in, they got, they got first dibs. But it was interesting because when the second client called, they, they did, they started, you know, well, it would be a couple more days and it would be, you know, there might be a little bit more money on this or whatever.

And I, you know, politely, but kind of very quickly cut them off. And it was like, that's not part of the dis the decision making process for me, that doesn't, that doesn't factor in. It's like the most important thing is who called first? Who confirms first? They're the ones that get the gig. Every once in a while you end up having to really, really make some painful decisions because you end up not doing the gig you really, really wanted to do in order to do the gig that you've already committed to.

Um, and so I, to me it's like, don't bail. Don't bail, don't bail no matter what. Now where the, the exception, and it's not even exception, but where the the nuance comes in is when the differences between the two gigs become more extreme. It's like if it's only one or two days either way and everything else is very, pretty much equal, it's kinda like, okay, that's a no brainer.

I just first person who confirms, that's the gig I do when it's two days versus a month worth of work. Um, or I had a situation a few years ago, um, where I took a one day gig as a favor for a local theater at half my rate. And then I got called for a week and a half for another gig at my full rate. So it was a, a wide, um, but I still, and interestingly enough, the one that I was doing as a favor would probably have never called me back.

IEI could have bailed on them and it, quote unquote, would not have hurt me. But you just never, never, never, never bail on a gig. You just never bail on a gig. It's like as simple as that. And I, you know, I, I called them back and I said, would it be okay with you if I found somebody as qualified as me to do this gig for you?

I'll take care of them. I'll take care of hiring them. I'll take care of making sure that they know everything and they'll show up on my place. And they said, that's fine. And I called a friend and she covered for me, and I paid the difference outta my own pocket. Because she wasn't doing it as a favor, it was a full gig for her.

I paid the difference outta my pocket. I did the longer gig. Everybody was happy with me. Everybody wins. Uh, you know, it's, once you commit to a gig, you're committed. It's like, it's, it's kind of as simple as that. Every once in a while it can really hurt. Every once in a while you're like, uh, and especially in that first time I was talking about, of the first 12 to 18 months of like you're saying yes to everything.

You're gonna say yes to something that's two days, and then a month later you're gonna get something that's for two weeks and you're gonna be like, Ugh, ugh, this is so painful. But that reputation of knowing that, you know, this guy doesn't bail on gigs is so crucially important. In fact, in the interaction I just talked about the the client that I had to ultimately turn down, I literally said, you know, I'm really sorry.

I'd love to do your gig. I love working with you guys, but at least you know that if I'm confirmed on your gig, I will never bail on you. You never have to worry about that. And he was like, absolutely, you're right. And I appreciate it and I appreciate your position on it and understood. And he's already called me back again for something, you know?

And so it's that reputation of I you don't bail once you're confirmed, you don't bail for anything. I mean.

[00:25:43] Andy Leviss: and, and that's the thing too, that if, if you're talking to or working with a company that doesn't respond that way, and that is, well, then f you, you're dead To me. That's not a company you wanna be working

[00:25:53] Brian Maddox: Exactly. It's like it's because here's the thing, it's like people who expect you to bail on other people will absolutely bail on you. Like this is, this is not rocket

[00:26:04] Andy Leviss: ding, ding that ding.

[00:26:06] Brian Maddox: It's this rocket science. It's like, you know, if they think that that's normal behavior, then that's what they're going to do to you.

They're going to cancel on youth 12 hours out and you're gonna say cancellation fee, and they're gonna say, pound sand, and that will be it. You know? So, yeah, I, that's also true. It's like I don't wanna do business with people who would accept that as, oh, you got a better gig, you can't do mine. Okay, fine.

Um, okay.

[00:26:34] Sean Walker: But the, the, the distinction you made in your previous story was, Hey, I got this way better fricking gig and I found you somebody as good or better than me to replace me. And I took the onus on myself and sort it all out so I could go do this other thing. Is that okay? I. Fuck. Yeah, that's okay. But if you said, Hey, sorry, I gotta go.

I got this better gig. Well, I'll eat a dick, bro. Like, you know what I mean? That's lame.

[00:27:00] Brian Maddox: And if I had, basically I lined everything up, I lined up this other engineer who was, she's absolutely as good as me, if not better. Um, which isn't not that hard. Um,

[00:27:12] Sean Walker: What's her name? Can I scribble it down and take her number and.

[00:27:16] Brian Maddox: um, hello Maria. Um, but uh, the other part was if they had said, no, we really want you on this gig, then I would've done the gig. And that's the thing, it's like still over everything. It's like, I've committed to you to do this gig. And that has happened to me. I've had a couple times where something much better happened and I went back to the original client and I said, you know, would you be comfortable with me getting a replacement for the thing or whatever?

And they were like, no man, we really, you know, our client's used to using you and we really need you. No problem. End of conversation is cool. Bye. And I took a two week pay hit or something. 'cause it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. That stuff pays off like a hundred. I could, I could trace literal.

[00:28:12] Sean Walker: called you a bunch. Since then.

[00:28:13] Brian Maddox: I could trace hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work based on making those kinds of calls early on in my career.

And that is, I'm not exaggerating because I've literally a couple times done the math in my head of, oh yeah, I remember that was such and such a client. And early on when we first did, and we had this thing and that had the whatever, and then I told 'em to do the this, whatever, and then it's like, oh, and I've now done 120 other gigs for them.

How much money has that been worth? Well, that paid for my house. It's like, you know, it's, it's, it adds up. It's just one of those, it's, it's painful at the moment. You know, I, it happened to me three weeks ago, like, you know, where I just, something moved and I lost a week's worth of work and it is what it is.

And you know, I, you know, I was already committed to something else and I did the thing that I was committed to it. It never completely goes away. But when you take the long view. Man, does that pay off?

[00:29:15] Sean Walker: To wrap that around to your first statement. If you've got some money in the bank, a couple of months with the bills, you're not immediately destitute when you have to keep your word and have integrity and it allows you to keep your word and have integrity so that you're like, man, that sucks that I missed out on a week worth of work, but I can still eat.

The mortgage will still get paid, and the motorcycle still has fuel. You know what I mean?

[00:29:37] Brian Maddox: It's absolutely, and it's, it's, it's, you know, I, I wish I had known this better when I was, when I was younger, I, I made, I made one mistake one time financially. Uh, that's not true. But I made one big mistake Uh, but

[00:29:58] Andy Leviss: stem from his terrible math skills,

[00:30:00] Brian Maddox: yes, first from my terrible muscles. Um, but, um. No, early on in my career I had just turned freelance.

Um, starting to get a little bit of money in the bank, starting to add up a little bit. Work was starting to get, I'd been there a couple years, been freelance a couple years, you know, starting to get those annual gigs coming back around. Things were looking pretty good, you know, I'd saved up a little bit of money, like things were pretty good.

And so I was like, ah, you know, and I've been eyeing this and I don't even remember what it was that I wanted to buy, but there was two or three fairly expensive things that I wanted to buy. And so I was like, you know what? I'm in a good place. I can buy these things. And I bought the things. Um, and I bought the things, um, five days before nine 11 happened.

[00:30:44] Sean Walker: Woo.

[00:30:46] Brian Maddox: And so I basically drained my savings and then all live events stopped for six months, and I learned a lesson that I never, ever, ever forgot. Because, and so when Covid happened, I was not comfortable. I wasn't happy about it, but I had a year and a half's worth of money saved up. So that helps take a lot of, now, I would've, it would've taken me down to zero.

It would've meant that I had like, but worst case scenario, it's like I did the math and it's like if I strip everything down to minimum, I can go a year and a half without, it's having a, now again, I'm late stages of my career. A year and a half is a long time. I'm not saying that's what everybody should have, or, or, or could have, but your point is very well made.

It's like that cushion buys you flexibility and that cushion buys you the ability to make the right decision that builds your reputation, that makes the cushion bigger, that makes you able to make the right decision to build the right reputation that makes the cushion bigger. Larin repeat, and. Then you get to be, you know, serve Mr.

Brian Maddox. Um, you know. Yeah. Uh, but, but yeah, you get to, to, to be able to, you know, make the right decision and, and have, and well, and frankly, it's like I'm also now able to do things like, oh, I just decided to take a three week vacation and turn down all the work for that three week vacation, because I can.

But it is a whole career of building resources and reputation and getting to the point where I can say no to somebody and say, I'm sorry, I can't do that because I'm going on vacation. And for them to go, dude, cool. So happy you can go on vacation instead of, what do you mean your vacation's more important than us?

It's like, you know, that's reputation. It's just something that builds up.

[00:32:53] Sean Walker: Totally, and to put a bow on everything we're talking about. All we're selling is trust. Dude, as freelancers, all we're selling is trust. I don't care if you're Dante certified or what fucking certificate you've got, do I trust you? And that's, that's really the, the succinct way for us to wrap up what we've been talking about all day is you're just building and selling trust to clients.

[00:33:19] Brian Maddox: That's that. I just wrote that down because, and, and I'm stealing that and I'm going to claim that I came up with it. Um,

[00:33:25] Sean Walker: did come up with it. I heard it right here.

[00:33:27] Andy Leviss: Yep.

[00:33:28] Brian Maddox: but, but it, because, 'cause it is, it's like all of this talk of reputation, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like I get, I get, I get hired because people trust that the gig will get done. I get hired so that they can basically say, and now I can just check audio off the box.

Like we can just check that off.

[00:33:47] Sean Walker: A hundred percent.

[00:33:47] Brian Maddox: That's it. I, I don't get hired because I'm brilliant. I don't get hired for my good looks. I don't get hired.

[00:33:52] Sean Walker: I don't know. You should, man. The hair's flowy.

[00:33:54] Brian Maddox: The hair, the hair, rocks. Um, but, uh, it's a hundred percent, you know, I, I get flown across the country to do something that somebody in town probably could do just as well as me, because I already have a trust relationship built up with a client, and it is worth the money to them to fly me in to do it because trust, it's, that's the bottom line.

[00:34:19] Sean Walker: Start a new company, trust audio.

[00:34:22] Brian Maddox: Ooh. I like it.

[00:34:24] Andy Leviss: Uh, so I got one more question I wanna leave us with, 'cause I think this is another important question that comes up and I know it's one that you and I, Brian, have sort of bounced around in like our, like offline exchanges at least once or twice in the past, which is setting rates and changing rates.

Like when you come back around to it, you've got a client at yours. When do you, when do you decide, okay, new clients are at a higher rate, but I'm gonna let this person slide? Or when do you go like, Hey, I know this is the rate you've had me at, I need to ratchet up. And like, how, how do you do that? Or do you still have clients you're charging your 15 year ago rate because you don't want to do that?

[00:35:01] Brian Maddox: Rates. There's another 17 hours worth of, of, but I, but I, I'll, I'll, I'll talk about a couple things. One, when you're first starting out as a freelancer, in my opinion, uh, you shouldn't freak out too much about setting your rate to some magic specific number and stress over it and do exactly the, like, the, the reality is, when you first start out as a freelancer, you don't even really know what you're worth because you aren't, you haven't been in the market and the market sets what you're worth.

That's just the way it works. You're worth what people will pay you, period. You're not worth, worth, you're not worth what people, what your friends think you're worth. You're not worth what you think. You're worth it. You are worth what people will pay you. It's, it's. And so you don't find out what people will pay you until you get out in the marketplace and do some work and figure out what people will pay you.

So I, I say that first, you know, I don't know, you could even say a couple years that early in your freelance career, there may be a not insignificant amount of variability between, with this client. I get this much with this client, I get this much different. Clients are operating different levels in the business.

They're operating with different profit margins they're operating with. They just are. And so, uh, you could be doing work for company B and, you know, $400 a day is completely fair because that's all they can afford to pay you. And they're really cool and you work for them. And then you, you know, company a, it could be way more than that, et cetera, et cetera.

Eventually, once you get a reputation, you kind of get established, at least for me, that al the. Outliers tend to get shaved off, and I settle in on a number. Now, the way that I do my business is, and I, I decided this a long, long time ago. There's upsides and downsides. It's not right for everybody, but I decided a long time ago my rate would be the same no matter what my role was.

No matter what the client, no matter who, no matter, it's like, you hire me to empty trash cans. I cost this much. You hire me to, to a one, a multi-city. 10 million people online broadcast, same rate, like it's the same. It's just, it's just, I'm just, this is, you've hired my entire skillset. You've hired. Me and I bring all of me and all of me is how much this costs.

That does simplify things for me a little bit too. It's like I don't end up with a whole lot of, oh, such and such, you know? Now occasionally there'll be a situation where I'll have a, a trust relationship with someone and they'll say, Hey, you know, I really would like you on this, but we don't have the profit margin to pay you.

Would you be willing to do it for a blank? If I already have a trust relationship set up with someone like that, I may consider doing that. Um, I had a situation where I had a trust relationship set up with someone, and I was working jobs for them on a fairly regular basis. But those jobs were slowing down.

And I called him up and I said, is my rate too high for the kinds of jobs that you guys are doing? And he said, well, you know, if your rate was a little bit lower, I could probably sell you more easily on the project managers to use you on more gigs. And I said, okay, fine. And I, you know, we had a trust relationship based conversation.

He didn't come to me and say, lower your rate. I came to him and said, is my rate too high for the kinds of work that you're doing? And he said, yeah, it is a little. And I said, okay. And I adjusted. Um, and if I were to use his name, it's a name everybody knows. Um, so, but it's a trust thing, you know, we're selling trust.

And so once you've established that trust relationship, a lot of these rate things become far less. Of an issue. And just this last year, I raised my rate a higher percentage year over year than I ever have for my entire career. And it made me a little uncomfortable doing it. And all I got back from every single client that I set my rate, my set, sent my rate change note to was, sounds good.

We'll make a note of it. Or from one client. It's about fucking time. Your rate's been too low for way too long.

[00:39:33] Andy Leviss: Thanks for telling me bud.

[00:39:36] Sean Walker: It would've been nice if you told me that 10 years ago, asshole.

[00:39:39] Brian Maddox: And, um, now that's, now that said, I also had, um, this happened a long time ago. I had a client that I had worked with for quite a while and I sent him my invoice and he, he sent me the check and the check was for too much money. And I called him back and I said, what's the deal? The, the, your check is for too much money.

He said, your rate's too low. Everybody else in town is, is getting way more than this and you're way better than them. So I just changed your rate to reflect that.

[00:40:10] Sean Walker: That's awesome.

[00:40:11] Brian Maddox: And it's, it's, it's, we're selling trust. I mean, it's the bottom line when it comes to rates, when it comes down to everything. It's, we're selling trust and, you know, so we're, and, and we're building trust relationships, you know, the, the, my primary clients, if they call me and say, business situation has changed, we can't pay your rate anymore.

All we can afford is blank. I trust them because I have built a trust relationship with them over the years. They are not trying to screw me, they're just being honest with me. If I send. A rates increase. They trust that I'm not just gouging because I can, but it's because my living expenses have gone up.

My value in the marketplace has gone up and therefore this is what I'm worth now. And these, when you build that trust, when you build that bedrock of trust, a lot of the difficulties with how to set rates and and how to negotiate rates just becomes, in my opinion, a whole lot simpler.

[00:41:19] Andy Leviss: So you

[00:41:20] Sean Walker: And a lot, a lot of that will also have to do with your market and where you are in the world, right? Because if you're, if you're in, I mean, I, I would speculate the rates locally in Savannah, Georgia are not the same as la, New York, Seattle, Miami, London, whatever, right? Like, that's not gonna be the same thing, right?

So when people are like, Hey, man, can you come to Seattle and do this big broadcast or wherever you guys, you know, because you guys have been here a few times to do some huge freaking shows. That's, that's not like, Hey man, we're in the middle of nowhere. Can we do this? Like the major metropolitan area?

Two rates are gonna be higher because cost of living is higher. So it's not a shock when you're like, oh, you're in Seattle and you're getting this rate, or you're in LA getting that rate. And it, it's like, yeah, man, that's what it costs here, right? But if you're like, Hey, I'm in the middle of nowhere, people are like, oh my God, that that's the rate.

And you're like, well, yeah, that's what it cost to live in a city, dude, you know?

[00:42:08] Brian Maddox: Yeah.

[00:42:09] Sean Walker: So it's hard to com. My point of that was it's hard to say, well, your rate should be this to be an A one anywhere in the world, because if you live locally, that's just not the case sometimes, right? Like 200 bucks could be a ton of money at some place in the world, whereas other places in the world you're like, that barely buys a Starbucks and a gallon of gas.

[00:42:29] Brian Maddox: yeah. Any, any discussion of rate that's, that's that, um, that starts to talk about specific numbers immediately, you have to start down the road of. Where are you and what market are you working in and what type of what? And there's two different, two different markers of the market. There's the size of the actual metropolitan market if you're working in a, in New York City versus Cincinnati versus Savannah, Georgia.

And then there's also just, uh, are you working for Apple Corporation or are you working for the local association of car dealers? Like those are two different markets. That's two different kinds of work. And the profit margins on those are completely different. The people working in those areas are completely different.

Both of them are valid. Both of them require your absolute best, but they may not have the same. Budget to pay you the same amounts of money even in the same market. And so, you know, as soon as you get into individual numbers, everything becomes relative. And, which is why any conversation of, you know, well I is, my rate is such and such, is it worth it?

It's like, uh, I don't know.

[00:43:47] Sean Walker: I don't know. Yeah. How would I know?

[00:43:49] Andy Leviss: Yeah. And that's the thing, that's one of the reasons I I haven't looked to push us into talking specific numbers here is not that I think they shouldn't be talked about. I think rates should be talked about very openly 'cause that's how we build equity with like newer folks in the industry and folks who've historically been less represented in the industry.

It's that it doesn't always broadly translate here. I think like that's more of like a discord kind of conversation 'cause it's easier to give a lot more context for that.

[00:44:16] Brian Maddox: Yeah, exactly. Like I, I have absolutely no problem sharing my actual number rate. I'm just not bothering to do it here because it's, we're, we're talking to people all over the world. We're talking to people in, in, you know, everything from, I'm still in high school to, you know, I'm a retiree who does gigs on the weekends and everything in between.

Like there's, there's so much variability in there that the actual number is, to me is less important than, than the overall kind of the principles of the conversation.

[00:44:48] Sean Walker: Absolutely. Absolutely. And like you stated earlier, if you're, let's stay in the corporate vein for a second. If you're doing corporate shows for all the local, you know, chamber of Commerce or the whatever, blah, blah, blah, that's a different rate than getting flown all over the world for Visa. And you know, like you said, apple, T-Mobile, Microsoft, all these Fortune 100 companies.

That's a different level of expertise and stress and expectations, which comes with a different and hopefully higher rate than just do the best you can at the local level. And that's not to say that, you know, if you're in New York City, local shows don't happen that are big. But like, if you're doing national and global shows, there's a different level of expertise needed, therefore a different rate being paid.

And it's just a different scale. So don't, like you said, don't get caught up on the actual number because that's gonna vary greatly. You know what I mean?

[00:45:37] Brian Maddox: Yep. Yeah, and, and, and, and you know, my, my thing that I said of, you know, I, I work the same rate everywhere. I've been doing this for 30 years. I am in a very specific part of my career. And where I am in my career allows me the luxury of just charging the same rate. And, and I have a broad enough client base that.

Feel that that rate is perfectly fine. That doesn't necessarily translate to, I've been a freelancer for two years and I'm 27 years old. Um, or I've been a freelancer for four years and I'm 35 years old and I've been in the business for 50 or whatever. Any other situation I want to draw out doesn't necessarily translate that to, to that.

There's nothing wrong with having different rates for different situations. I, I think my biggest concern was always just I didn't wanna be doing the same work in the same circumstances for two different clients at two different rates. 'cause that just felt like a huge minefield of trust that I didn't, I was like, this feels like I could step on a landmine of trust,

[00:46:49] Sean Walker: Absolutely it does.

[00:46:50] Brian Maddox: but if I'm working two different situations, I.

Two different markets, two different roles, two diff. If there's enough differentiation that when company A that's paying me more money, finds out that I'm working for company B for less money, but they go, oh, but his role is completely different. He's doing something completely different now. Now we don't have a trust issue now it, now it all makes perfect sense.

[00:47:17] Sean Walker: Absolutely. Oh, you're going to take a quick local gig in Savannah to go do this thing for a reasonable rate. Cool, man. But when I call you to go to Visa or whatever, some Fortune 100 company, I expect that rate to come with it, right? Like Absolutely. The other part is that, I'll add to that, all of us, let's say you're starting local and you're not being flown all over the world, right?

As a newer freelancer, all us sound company owners in your market know each other. We call, we text, we email, we barbecue, we golf, we tell bad jokes. We know all the freelancers in the pool. And so if you're like, Hey man, I'm rocking 20 or 30 bucks an hour for a guy down the street and you're trying to bill me six 50 a day, eat a dick.

You know what I mean? For the same kind of show, not a chance, man. Pick a, like you said, pick a rate, like my local rate is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Or whatever. And so then you're like, okay, well I can't call you 'cause you're trying to double, triple dip on me because I am, maybe I am in a different market usually, but I had a, a regular show now or whatever.

But like, pick a rate as soon as you can so that you're not doing that. You know what I mean?

[00:48:19] Brian Maddox: Because all we're selling is trust. I mean, it's, it's, it's just, it all ev it's just everything. Circles back always, always circles back to trust. Trust, trust. Act in a way that you can be trusted and then people will find you trustworthy. And once people find you trustworthy, all the doors open up. It's kind of as simple as that.

[00:48:44] Sean Walker: Absolutely. And that applies to us companies and to you freelancers. It applies to everything in life. Be trustworthy. Totally. Well, that seems like a great place to wrap it up after 12 hours. Uh, thank you Brian for coming in. Yeah,

[00:49:00] Andy Leviss: Wait, are those the longer we know? Those are the longer ones. 'cause they're a hundred minute, yeah.

[00:49:03] Sean Walker: Thanks Brian for coming in. Yapping, we're about, uh, helping people make some money and be good people and freelancers thanks to RCF for making ripping speakers so people can actually make money with them. And Allen Heat from making dope consoles. Y'all rock. That's the pod. See you next week.

[00:49:16] Brian Maddox: Thank you.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green